A GH and fat loss protocol (rhGH lipolysis) that is science-based

[Type-IIx]

Ok take my money when’s the book going to be released?

I will let you know as soon as I can say!

 

[may2021]

FFA (serum) is a reflection (a proxy) for lipid mobilization, training may be used to induce beta oxidation, there are benefits from GH in the post-training replenishment of triglyceride stores. What you do with that is dependent on your training.

What's your argument for 24/7 insulin resistance?

This protocol calls for as large a bolus as affordable/tolerable, and a second dose can be administered at nighttime (pre-sleep). I would argue this evidence convincingly demonstrates one high peak is better than two low peaks.

As for IM: I do not disagree, the issue is that we do not have insight into its pharmacokinetics/pharmacodynamics and it's less comfortable for most; given that subq is effective, comfortable, and we do have insight into its PK/PD, I opt for that. This does not foreclose the use of IM, and the book has plenty of protocols that DO call for IM administration over subq in certain use cases.

Timing of the meal 4-4.5 h post-bolus is for appetite and energy homeostasis.

As I've mentioned before, my view is that rhGH practical use falls into the following categories:
I) lipolysis
II) growth/anabolism
III) anti-aging
IV) post-rehabilitation/return from immobilization

with permutations based on limited dosage:
i) non-rehabilitative usage (lipolysis/recomp)
ii) anti-aging

I'm curious... what specific anti-aging evidence has been realized from exogenous gh?

 

[Type-IIx]

I'm curious... what specific anti-aging evidence has been realized from exogenous gh?

Well, there's the Rudman study (1990), all the books, and anti-aging clinics that have sprung into existence since. All are founded on the inference that the age-related decline in body composition, metabolic variables, muscular strength, and cardiorespiratory endurance can be attenuated by administration of rhGH.

 

[Type-IIx]

And I've read somewhere there's a greater potential for general calcification - including the pineal gland... i.e., leading to dementia/Alzheimer's which, you'll never hear about in body building.

That's interesting! I would note that we also never hear about it as a consequence of rhGH use in bodybuilding, suggesting it's largely irrelevant. I'd say the link is spurious at best. There is a greater potential for calcium retention, certainly as this is a primary mechanism in GH anabolism/anti-catabolism. There is, too, a link between acromegaly and bony overgrowth/osteoarthritis, but I do not believe there is a true causal link between rhGH protocols as discussed and these symptoms of acromegaly.

 

[Biggerp73]

FFA (serum) is a reflection (a proxy) for lipid mobilization, training may be used to induce beta oxidation, there are benefits from GH in the post-training replenishment of triglyceride stores. What you do with that is dependent on your training.

I think this is plausible I'm just trying to poke holes for the sake of refinement

What's your argument for 24/7 insulin resistance?

Well it would seem to my amateur eyes that insulin resistance is caused by GH's anti-lipogenerative function, and that when net fat loss is your main goal, keeping that anti-lipogenerative state in place 24/7 would be ideal

This protocol calls for as large a bolus as affordable/tolerable, and a second dose can be administered at nighttime (pre-sleep).

Let's say someone injects 7iu before training in the morning. They have another 3iu. You would have them do 10iu in the morning rather than 7iu before training and another 3iu at night before bed? But you leave open the option of doing it the second way? What's your concern with doing it the second way?

I would argue this evidence convincingly demonstrates one high peak is better than two low peaks.

Which evidence ?

Timing of the meal 4-4.5 h post-bolus is for appetite and energy homeostasis.

Given bodybuilders almost always have meals spaced apart by no more than 5-6 hours at most, and given the benefits of pre-work out nutrition, if someone wanted to follow your protocol for AM training, they'd be waking up, eating a meal, and injecting their bolus. Then training a couple hours later and having their next meal after that. How does your protocol address or understand the relationship between the first meal consumed in the morning and the bolus administered at the same time?

 

[Type-IIx]

I think this is plausible I'm just trying to poke holes for the sake of refinement


Well it would seem to my amateur eyes that insulin resistance is caused by GH's anti-lipogenerative function, and that when net fat loss is your main goal, keeping that anti-lipogenerative state in place 24/7 would be ideal

IR is unfortunately the most acute deleterious effect of GH that we must work around.

Let's say someone injects 7iu before training in the morning. They have another 3iu. You would have them do 10iu in the morning rather than 7iu before training and another 3iu at night before bed? But you leave open the option of doing it the second way? What's your concern with doing it the second way?

I cannot get into dosages. What I propose is that it's most logical to administer a dosage that is limited by tolerability/sides 2-3 hr preworkout and then the rest of the dosage logically would be nighttime for the overarching goal of lipolysis.

Which evidence ?

Peak GH is consistently the strongest correlate for lipolytic effects.

Given bodybuilders almost always have meals spaced apart by no more than 5-6 hours at most, and given the benefits of pre-work out nutrition, if someone wanted to follow your protocol for AM training, they'd be waking up, eating a meal, and injecting their bolus. Then training a couple hours later and having their next meal after that. How does your protocol address or understand the relationship between the first meal consumed in the morning and the bolus administered at the same time?

There is no harm to administration in the postabsorptive or post-prandial state.

 

[GuerillaPete]

IR is unfortunately the most acute deleterious effect of GH that we must work around.

I cannot get into dosages. What I propose is that it's most logical to administer a dosage that is limited by tolerability/sides 2-3 hr preworkout and then the rest of the dosage logically would be nighttime for the overarching goal of lipolysis.

Peak GH is consistently the strongest correlate for lipolytic effects.

There is no harm to administration in the postabsorptive or post-prandial state.

Could there be truth to the theory that IM absorbs over a longer period of time compared to subQ?
The theory behind this is that the gh remains more time in depo in the muscle prolonging its absorption and effects similar to winstrol inj having linger half life than oral winstrol.

 

[Type-IIx]

Could there be truth to the theory that IM absorbs over a longer period of time compared to subQ?
The theory behind this is that the gh remains more time in depo in the muscle prolonging its absorption and effects similar to winstrol inj having linger half life than oral winstrol.

The differences in pharmacokinetics (GH delivery) between subq and IM are well characterized: where subq has a maximal absorption time of 4-6 hr (2IU), and a disappearance from the serum of 20-24 hr, IM has a maximal absorption time of 2-3 hr (2IU), and a disappearance from the serum of 12-20 hr.

This would be (this seems to be a theme with current broscience?) contrary to the theory you propose.

 

[Biggerp73]

IR is unfortunately the most acute deleterious effect of GH that we must work around.

For muscle cells, yes. I'm not sure but I think fat cells are effected here too. Fat cells resistant to insulin would help decrease lipogenesis and positively effect net fat loss.

Peak GH is consistently the strongest correlate for lipolytic effects.

Right but let's make a comparison. If a study showed that intensity was the strongest correlate for hypertrophic effects when it comes to exercise/lifting variables, that would be evidence for a more intense set vs. a less intense set. But it wouldn't necessarily prove that one intense set is better than say three moderate intensity sets. It may well be the case, but simply showing that a treatment with a higher peak outperforms a treatment with a lower peak, doesn't seem to prove that a single high peak is better than multiple peaks of any size.

There is no harm to administration in the postabsorptive or post-prandial state.

No but I wonder about your attempts to sync up the timing and how that may be relevant here

 

[Type-IIx]

For muscle cells, yes. I'm not sure but I think fat cells are effected here too. Fat cells resistant to insulin would help decrease lipogenesis and positively effect net fat loss.


Right but let's make a comparison. If a study showed that intensity was the strongest correlate for hypertrophic effects when it comes to exercise/lifting variables, that would be evidence for a more intense set vs. a less intense set. But it wouldn't necessarily prove that one intense set is better than say three moderate intensity sets. It may well be the case, but simply showing that a treatment with a higher peak outperforms a treatment with a lower peak, doesn't seem to prove that a single high peak is better than multiple peaks of any size.


No but I wonder about your attempts to sync up the timing and how that may be relevant here

I feel you may be losing the plot here and falling back into reactive argument for its own sake brother.

What do you mean, insulin resistance is not systemic with GH?

The protocols being practical mean that the first consideration is reasonable limits on dosage. Sure, if you are talking about a daily dosage that is, arbitrarily, >30IU daily or some such (don't turn this into a strawman argument) you may start thinking about increased frequency of administration. Peak GH is correlated with lipolysis... consistently.

The bolus is designed to be followed by a post-training meal 4-4.5 hr post administration, that is the logic. Every bodybuilder can administer that first bolus in the post-prandial or post-absorptive state without harm.

 

[Biggerp73]

I feel you may be losing the plot here and falling back into reactive argument for its own sake brother.

No I'm just thinking through the claims

What do you mean, insulin resistance is not systemic with GH?

I didn't mean to say that. I was simply saying that it seems fat cells would be less likely to store fat if they are insulin resistant.

The protocols being practical mean that the first consideration is reasonable limits on dosage. Sure, if you are talking about a daily dosage that is, arbitrarily, >30IU daily or some such (don't turn this into a strawman argument) you may start thinking about increased frequency of administration.

I didn't think you would disagree about that

Peak GH is correlated with lipolysis... consistently.

Well yes we've talked about that I just haven't seen evidence indicating one high peak is better than two peaks half the size. The law of diminishing returns would indicate that lipolytic activity doesn't increase linearly without end as dosage increases.

 

[Type-IIx]

No I'm just thinking through the claims


I didn't mean to say that. I was simply saying that it seems fat cells would be less likely to store fat if they are insulin resistant.


I didn't think you would disagree about that


Well yes we've talked about that I just haven't seen evidence indicating one high peak is better than two peaks half the size. The law of diminishing returns would indicate that lipolytic activity doesn't increase linearly without end as dosage increases.

I believe lipolysis becomes more strongly correlated to peak GH as dose increases to some unknown value (it would be a focus of mine to try to tease out this value from the literature) and tends to diminish above that value. I think that value is likely quite high, higher than most guys seem to be running. Working on it!

 

[Biggerp73]

I believe lipolysis becomes more strongly correlated to peak GH as dose increases to some unknown value (it would be a focus of mine to try to tease out this value from the literature) and tends to diminish above that value. I think that value is likely quite high, higher than most guys seem to be running. Working on it!

Ok. I was thinking since my last post. Just from my own anecdotal experience, trying to inject a whole vial all at once, vs. splitting it up into several doses, the single shot made me fuller and rounder, but it felt like the multiple doses made me lean out quicker. I'd be interested to see more guys try out the methods to see the varying results.

 

[Type-IIx]

Ok. I was thinking since my last post. Just from my own anecdotal experience, trying to inject a whole vial all at once, vs. splitting it up into several doses, the single shot made me fuller and rounder, but it felt like the multiple doses made me lean out quicker. I'd be interested to see more guys try out the methods to see the varying results.

There's so many considerations: is insulin resistance worth fat loss for you? It impacts gains negatively. It will be interesting to see the result, I suspect it will be fruitful as it's certainly what the evidence suggests. Do remember, the more is better principle applies as the first rule with rhGH. On a per dose basis, I believe this to be a superior protocol for lipolysis. What's being done currently likely originates from Chest Rockwell's articles and was bolstered by L. Rea's early work, these date back to when GH was viewed primarily as a protein sparing hormone during starvation, the logic back then would have been therefore using it during starvation makes sense for lipolysis. That's an old series of articles, a lot has been learned.

 

[MFAAS]

Just wanted to pop this in here. I translated the regimen to about as plain and simple too understand as you possibly can for another thread.

This is the "explain like I'm 5" (ELI5) version:

1. Eat your meal 1-2 hours before, or within 1 hour after pinning your full HGH dose for the day.

2. Workout 2-3 hours after the HGH pin.

3. Eat post workout meal within an hour, maybe 90 mins after you finish your workout. Together this should cause your post workout meal to be approximately 4 hours after your HGH pin.

Facts:
HGH causes insulin to not work so well. This causes your blood sugar to go up. This happens about an hour or two after taking HGH and lasts 5-8 hours depending on your dosage (possibly longer?).

HGH also causes your body to take fat from your fat reserves and free it up, letting it float around in your blood. This means if you exercise at that time, your body can use that fat, burn it, and thus you are preferentially burning MORE FAT than normal because of the HGH.

Lastly, exercise significantly increases insulin sensitivity and allows the nutrients you eat to be transported directly into your MUSCLES rather than floating around your blood to layer be stored as fat!

So, timing your HGH dose around your meal schedule as outlined above helps in many ways:
1. It minimizes/eliminates food intake when your body is insulin insensitive.
2. This prevents you from having such high blood sugar spikes.
3. You exercise when your body has peak HGH levels. This prevents muscle breakdown and burns the most fat.
4. Then you eat after exercising, which mitigates the insulin insensitivity, again preventing high blood sugar spikes and enabling those yummy nutrients to go into your muscles so you can keep the fat that you just burned OFF!

Hopefully this helps some of the folks who aren't as good at translating science-speak to layperson speak

@Type-IIx feel free to copy and use this if you ever want and edit or make changes if desired.

 

[Shadow Project]

1. Eat your meal 1-2 hours before, or within 1 hour after pinning your full HGH dose for the day.

So it would be okay to inject hGH and then immediately have a meal? I was under the assumption to keep it away from meals for large amount of time, both prior and after bolus.

 

[MFAAS]

So it would be okay to inject hGH and then immediately have a meal? I was under the assumption to keep it away from meals for large amount of time, both prior and after bolus.

That is what @Type-IIx is asserting. I think it makes a lot of sense based off the research. If you look at post-prandial blood sugar response curves for normal (non-diabetic) people, blood sugar returns to baseline about 120 minutes after a meal (post-prandial=post meal). So ideally I would eat about an hour before dosing--but do what fits your schedule. Especially if you are having a low carb or a smaller meal then eating immediately after would be fine. Insulin resistance starts to kick in about 1-2 hours after dosing HGH. That's why the timing of Type-IIx's regimen makes so much sense. I love it. It actually has me looking into trying HGH. I was always concerned about 2 things: insulin resistance and possible gyno flare up (even though I had full gland removal, I am not wanting to risk it again). I can't do as much about the latter, but the former seems to be something I can mitigate with proper meal planning. I work from home so I have a super flexible schedule and can make whatever I want work.

One other thing a lot of people do is dose EOD. I may try that as well. I am curious if @Type-IIx has any thoughts on this. 6-8 IU EOD rather than 3-4 daily. I know that it wouldn't be ideal for fat loss, but you would still get gains and perhaps if you extend your LISS cardio on dosing days you could somewhat even things out?

@jJjburton tagging you since I saw you like my other post and Shadow Project's question, just to make sure you see the response.

Honestly, I think this is THE way to do HGH going forward. I wouldn't do it any other way. If I am bulking I might mix up some whey isolate and milk and eat a not-very-ripe-banana or some potatoes 45 mins before my workout, JUST enough that it helps give that boost to make sure I go all out lifting. Dosing anavar or adrol here might be a good idea too - if looking for maximum fat loss then dosing anavar might be ideal as anavar has been shown to increase fat loss all by itself.

I want to thank @Type-IIx (I know I've tagged you 3 times in the post, but it's all for praise for making this original post. I sincerely hope you do release this book/e-book/whatever. I would for sure pick it up, I'd be willing to pay a solid $20 bucks for it. The Stronger By Science guys will release stuff with a "minimum" payment but with the option to pay more. Their minimum for their training programs was $5 and I threw them $15 since I have the dough and like to help out people who put this kinda stuff out there--especially when they don't charge a fuck load like Mountain Dog (RIP) or Jeff Nippard. Sorry but I am not paying $50+ for a program that I don't even know if I will like.

 

[Type-IIx]

That is what @Type-IIx is asserting. I think it makes a lot of sense based off the research. If you look at post-prandial blood sugar response curves for normal (non-diabetic) people, blood sugar returns to baseline about 120 minutes after a meal (post-prandial=post meal). So ideally I would eat about an hour before dosing--but do what fits your schedule. Especially if you are having a low carb or a smaller meal then eating immediately after would be fine. Insulin resistance starts to kick in about 1-2 hours after dosing HGH. That's why the timing of Type-IIx's regimen makes so much sense. I love it. It actually has me looking into trying HGH. I was always concerned about 2 things: insulin resistance and possible gyno flare up (even though I had full gland removal, I am not wanting to risk it again). I can't do as much about the latter, but the former seems to be something I can mitigate with proper meal planning. I work from home so I have a super flexible schedule and can make whatever I want work.

One other thing a lot of people do is dose EOD. I may try that as well. I am curious if @Type-IIx has any thoughts on this. 6-8 IU EOD rather than 3-4 daily. I know that it wouldn't be ideal for fat loss, but you would still get gains and perhaps if you extend your LISS cardio on dosing days you could somewhat even things out?

@jJjburton tagging you since I saw you like my other post and Shadow Project's question, just to make sure you see the response.

Honestly, I think this is THE way to do HGH going forward. I wouldn't do it any other way. If I am bulking I might mix up some whey isolate and milk and eat a not-very-ripe-banana or some potatoes 45 mins before my workout, JUST enough that it helps give that boost to make sure I go all out lifting. Dosing anavar or adrol here might be a good idea too - if looking for maximum fat loss then dosing anavar might be ideal as anavar has been shown to increase fat loss all by itself.

I want to thank @Type-IIx (I know I've tagged you 3 times in the post, but it's all for praise for making this original post. I sincerely hope you do release this book/e-book/whatever. I would for sure pick it up, I'd be willing to pay a solid $20 bucks for it. The Stronger By Science guys will release stuff with a "minimum" payment but with the option to pay more. Their minimum for their training programs was $5 and I threw them $15 since I have the dough and like to help out people who put this kinda stuff out there--especially when they don't charge a fuck load like Mountain Dog (RIP) or Jeff Nippard. Sorry but I am not paying $50+ for a program that I don't even know if I will like.

EOD dosing is certainly something I see as viable and is discussed in the book with various permutations based on limited availability/dosage. It seems like you are really absorbing and appreciating what I've put out on rhGH, it's great to see!

 

[GuerillaPete]

This sounds nice and all but would skipping the first meal be better for fat loss?
Wake up take the gh after 1-2 hours start training and eat first meal after workout 3-4 hours post injection ?
Why would eating an extra meal befor training help fat loss ?

 

[Type-IIx]

This sounds nice and all but would skipping the first meal be better for fat loss?
Wake up take the gh after 1-2 hours start training and eat first meal after workout 3-4 hours post injection ?
Why would eating an extra meal befor training help fat loss ?

It doesn't harm rhGH-induced lipolysis to eat before or immediately after the bolus is the point. There's no logical justification for fasting around the rhGH dose aside from the user having a dietary regimen already in place, in which case fasting is permissible.