A GH and fat loss protocol (rhGH lipolysis) that is science-based

[giulopresti]

Someone told me to try 1 mg, but I am sensitive to stims. You may want to look into it and start lower. It never hurts to start lower and ramp up!

well, 1mg would be complicated given the capsules are 2.5mg, lol

anyway I understand what you mean; I can definitely start at 5mg, or even 2.5mg and see how it goes
I'm reading more information about it and it seems to be kind of a hell of sides for someone, so better stay conservative!

 

[MFAAS]

well, 1mg would be complicated given the capsules are 2.5mg, lol

anyway I understand what you mean; I can definitely start at 5mg, or even 2.5mg and see how it goes
I'm reading more information about it and it seems to be kind of a hell of sides for someone, so better stay conservative!

Yeah, I would just take 2.5 and see how it goes. No reason to risk the sides. And yes some people get some REALLY intense side effects, which is why I advised caution. You might wind up taking 10 mg on day 3 because you are fine, but you just don't know. It's a new substance and it is probably more of a risky one as far as sides go. Good luck man! Let us know how it goes.

 

[g-protein]

@Type-IIx First and foremost I'd like to thank you for everything you've shared on this forum. The amount of work you've put into your research, your friendly manners, the way you help people on this forum and the fact that you are doing all this for free has left me speechless. Your contribution to this community and the bodybuilding community in general has been absolutely invaluable. I am a med school student and having done research myself I can only imagine the time you've invested into your research. I am really happy to see someone bunking many of the old bodybuilding broscience myths with sound evidence from scientific literature.

This is going slightly off-topic, but I feel like this is a more appropriate place to ask your view on this subject rather than making a new thread. In theory, what do you think would be the most effective protocol for dosing HGH while maximizing ones own natural HGH secretion? This would mostly be relevant to younger inviduals who still secrete a substantial amount of HGH naturally. Note this is not about maximing fat loss or anabolism, but merely about maximing the total cumulative amount of HGH entering ones system during a longer period of time, say a week (= amount of IU's/week from both exogenous and endogenous sources).

According to this study by Hashimoto et al (Exogenous 20K Growth Hormone (GH) Suppresses Endogenous 22K GH Secretion in Normal Men) the administration of exogenous HGH via s.c. route seemed to suppress endogenous HGH secretion for around 20-24 hours. It is unfortunate however that they did not measure the HGH secretion past 24 hour mark, because the peak of the bolus around the 24 hour mark seems to be much smaller than the bolus at the beginning of the study. It is also noteworthy that it took several hours for the suppression to really kick in after administrating the HGH exogenously. Note that the HGH was administrated via s.c. injection in this study, so it could very well be that the suppression of endogenous secretion would last several hours less if the HGH was administrated via i.m. route.

So I've been thinking that for younger people who would like to maximize the natural secretion of HGH while using exogenous HGH it would make sense to pin the HGH intramuscularly midnight after the largest bolus of endogenous HGH secretion (which would happen during the first few hours of sleep). Since the rHGH would clear from the system faster when administrated via i.m, we could theorize that the suppression would last less than the 20-24 hours seen in the Hashimoto et al study. In theory we could then get the large endogenous bolus of HGH the next night prior to pinning again. To play it even safer, one could also combine the midnight administrations with dosing only every other day. I know this is a very simple and naive theory that does not include the fact that IGF-1 stays elevated longer and most likely at some point will reach high enough levels to completely shut down endogenous HGH section, or any other mechanisms unknown to me that may play a role in regulating the endogenous production of HGH. But that is exactly why I am asking for your view, because I know you are far more knowledgeable than me on this subject. Let's also leave the practicality out from this, as I understand it is not practical for most people to wake up mid night just to pin their HGH.

 

[Type-IIx]

@Type-IIx First and foremost I'd like to thank you for everything you've shared on this forum. The amount of work you've put into your research, your friendly manners, the way you help people on this forum and the fact that you are doing all this for free has left me speechless. Your contribution to this community and the bodybuilding community in general has been absolutely invaluable. I am a med school student and having done research myself I can only imagine the time you've invested into your research. I am really happy to see someone bunking many of the old bodybuilding broscience myths with sound evidence from scientific literature.

This is going slightly off-topic, but I feel like this is a more appropriate place to ask your view on this subject rather than making a new thread. In theory, what do you think would be the most effective protocol for dosing HGH while maximizing ones own natural HGH secretion? This would mostly be relevant to younger inviduals who still secrete a substantial amount of HGH naturally. Note this is not about maximing fat loss or anabolism, but merely about maximing the total cumulative amount of HGH entering ones system during a longer period of time, say a week (= amount of IU's/week from both exogenous and endogenous sources).

According to this study by Hashimoto et al (Exogenous 20K Growth Hormone (GH) Suppresses Endogenous 22K GH Secretion in Normal Men) the administration of exogenous HGH via s.c. route seemed to suppress endogenous HGH secretion for around 20-24 hours. It is unfortunate however that they did not measure the HGH secretion past 24 hour mark, because the peak of the bolus around the 24 hour mark seems to be much smaller than the bolus at the beginning of the study. It is also noteworthy that it took several hours for the suppression to really kick in after administrating the HGH exogenously. Note that the HGH was administrated via s.c. injection in this study, so it could very well be that the suppression of endogenous secretion would last several hours less if the HGH was administrated via i.m. route.

So I've been thinking that for younger people who would like to maximize the natural secretion of HGH while using exogenous HGH it would make sense to pin the HGH intramuscularly midnight after the largest bolus of endogenous HGH secretion (which would happen during the first few hours of sleep). Since the rHGH would clear from the system faster when administrated via i.m, we could theorize that the suppression would last less than the 20-24 hours seen in the Hashimoto et al study. In theory we could then get the large endogenous bolus of HGH the next night prior to pinning again. To play it even safer, one could also combine the midnight administrations with dosing only every other day. I know this is a very simple and naive theory that does not include the fact that IGF-1 stays elevated longer and most likely at some point will reach high enough levels to completely shut down endogenous HGH section, or any other mechanisms unknown to me that may play a role in regulating the endogenous production of HGH. But that is exactly why I am asking for your view, because I know you are far more knowledgeable than me on this subject. Let's also leave the practicality out from this, as I understand it is not practical for most people to wake up mid night just to pin their HGH.

Great question, and you are very welcome, I am happy to hear that you've been enjoying my posts!

Aside from practicality (as you say, this is highly impracticable), the greatest difficulty in what you propose is with ascertaining exactly when during our sleep cycle we have theoretically reached our limit with nighttime (sleep) endogenous synthesis and release of GH. The reason for this is that even somnographic studies that have looked at nighttime pulses use averages for subjects. There is, however, substantial interindividual and even intraindividual variation in nighttime pulsatile release of GH. So the assumption that at midnight we've reached our practical limit for pulsatile release or what have you is not a strong one to base the foundation of a hypothetical protocol to optimize GH secretion with concurrent use of rhGH.

The second major consideration is indeed the fact that a primary mechanism by which rhGH (and indeed secretagogues) negatively inhibit pulsatile release is by negative feedback at the pituitary by IGF-I, which is augmented by GH, whether stimulated by GHRHs/GHRPs/Ghrelin mimetics or rhGH.

So, it becomes impossible to meaningfully increase GH without resorting to frequent administration of secretagogues or rhGH for any practical benefit in my view.

I really think that this falls into the use case of limitations based on availability/dosage. I do address both rhGH only as well as the combined use of secretagogues and rhGH in Bolus for these use cases.

This is an excellent line of thinking, though.

Also, do note that 20kDa-GH is different from rhGH (22kDa-GH). The administration of rhGH is not (low quality) 20kDa, of which we have some endogenous levels, but at lower levels, than 22kDa-GH.

 

[malfeasance]

So, the primary effect of GH (in the basal state) is to promote lipid mobilization and oxidation as a means of switching substrate utilization from glucose and protein to lipid oxidation. This, then, argues for the primacy of FFA mobilization in its lipolytic effects. Granted, GH promotes lipolytic activity via other minor(!) mechanisms, increased REE, peripheral T4 to T3 conversion, increased sensitivity of adipocytes to catecholamines, etc. Given that a single bolus of rhGH acutely causes insulin resistance within 1-2 h, and these effects disappear after approximately 8 h, this is a strong consideration in favor of a single bolus versus 3 - 5 daily.

So, higher peak concentrations being a correlate to lipolysis clearly argues for a single large bolus, no? Preworkout is best given the benefits for anticatabolism, mitochondrial capacity, etc. from GH and fatty acid oxidation being promoted by exercise may be achieved by the workout. Then, 4 hr post-bolus, the post-workout meal is timed for the natural post-meal reduction in FFA levels.

This protocol is the consequence of logic versus an abundance of cited literature to support each individual "claim." Rather, I felt a single representative cite was sufficient. But I'll be happy to explain the considerations that lead me to each conclusion always.

Won't unused fatty acids just be stored as fat again?

Won't carbs and excess protein just be stored as fat again?

I guess I am having trouble seeing how lipid mobilization helps fat loss if calories stay the same.

So assuming that lipid mobilization means fat loss, it mentions greater than or equal to 3. How much greater than? Does the effect keep going up with dose?

 

[Type-IIx]

Won't unused fatty acids just be stored as fat again?

Won't carbs and excess protein just be stored as fat again?

I guess I am having trouble seeing how lipid mobilization helps fat loss if calories stay the same.

So assuming that lipid mobilization means fat loss, it mentions greater than or equal to 3. How much greater than? Does the effect keep going up with dose?

Not with chronic dosing and activity. Observe rhGH users on an exercise regimen, and you'll typically see substantial fat loss particularly from the central/abdominal region in a dose * time manner. Greater than or equal to 3, what do you mean? It's very difficult to ascertain the point of diminishing returns with regard to lipolysis and rhGH dose, but there is evidence that up to 16IU rhGH still provides additional lipolytic benefits over lower doses. I referenced a study showing this earlier in the thread.

 

[malfeasance]

Wow - 16 iu!

 

[Type-IIx]

Wow - 16 iu!

Yeah, it's remarkable how much higher the doses tend to be in the literature (easy availability of reference quality rhGH being the reason) than we might think. Personally, I tend to expect conservative approaches by researchers in general. They somehow, early on, came to the conclusion that bodybuilding dosages are typified by far higher dosages than reality (for most anyway; they are quite correct about pros, though) also. The real take away, though, to me is that the literature definitely has experimented with the whole spectrum of rhGH administration.

 

[malfeasance]

I cannot get into dosages. What I propose is that it's most logical to administer a dosage that is limited by tolerability/sides 2-3 hr preworkout and then the rest of the dosage logically would be nighttime for the overarching goal of lipolysis.

What is the reason why you cannot get into dosages?

 

[g-protein]

Great question, and you are very welcome, I am happy to hear that you've been enjoying my posts!

Aside from practicality (as you say, this is highly impracticable), the greatest difficulty in what you propose is with ascertaining exactly when during our sleep cycle we have theoretically reached our limit with nighttime (sleep) endogenous synthesis and release of GH. The reason for this is that even somnographic studies that have looked at nighttime pulses use averages for subjects. There is, however, substantial interindividual and even intraindividual variation in nighttime pulsatile release of GH. So the assumption that at midnight we've reached our practical limit for pulsatile release or what have you is not a strong one to base the foundation of a hypothetical protocol to optimize GH secretion with concurrent use of rhGH.

The second major consideration is indeed the fact that a primary mechanism by which rhGH (and indeed secretagogues) negatively inhibit pulsatile release is by negative feedback at the pituitary by IGF-I, which is augmented by GH, whether stimulated by GHRHs/GHRPs/Ghrelin mimetics or rhGH.

So, it becomes impossible to meaningfully increase GH without resorting to frequent administration of secretagogues or rhGH for any practical benefit in my view.

I really think that this falls into the use case of limitations based on availability/dosage. I do address both rhGH only as well as the combined use of secretagogues and rhGH in Bolus for these use cases.

This is an excellent line of thinking, though.

Also, do note that 20kDa-GH is different from rhGH (22kDa-GH). The administration of rhGH is not (low quality) 20kDa, of which we have some endogenous levels, but at lower levels, than 22kDa-GH.

Thank you very much for the detailed response. As much as I'd love to believe there could be a way to maintain some endogenous HGH production while running exogenous HGH, it really seems there is no way around the inhibitory mechanisms, as even with an eod dosing protocol one would run in to the problem of elevated IGF-1 concentration causing an inhibitory effect on the secretion of endogenous HGH. Nonetheless, I am really looking forward to read your book in the future and I wish you all the best with your project.

 

[Type-IIx]

Thank you very much for the detailed response. As much as I'd love to believe there could be a way to maintain some endogenous HGH production while running exogenous HGH, it really seems there is no way around the inhibitory mechanisms, as even with an eod dosing protocol one would run in to the problem of elevated IGF-1 concentration causing an inhibitory effect on the secretion of endogenous HGH. Nonetheless, I am really looking forward to read your book in the future and I wish you all the best with your project.

You understand, but so that others passing by are on the same page as us, suppression of endogenous GH lasts roughly 24 hours with the use of rhGH (subq). Quite unlike androgens, there is only this very short term suppression (and there is some escape from suppression, with some lower amplitude and frequency pulses even during this ~24 hr period). With rhGH, there is no long-term suppression unlike with androgens that cause chronic HPG axis suppression (reduced FSH, LH, T).

 

[Bigdiddy]

Mk677 would help

 

[Type-IIx]

Mk677 would help

Where's the delete post button?

 

[Anavarlover]

Do you think something like 300mg ipamorelin upon waking and before bed would increase endogenous gh more compared to using nothing?

 

[Type-IIx]

Do you think something like 300mg ipamorelin upon waking and before bed would increase endogenous gh more compared to using nothing?

Yes.

 

[Anavarlover]

Yes.

By how much

 

[Bigdiddy]

Where's the delete post button?

Dude mk677 increases natural gh levels . So those studies are discredited and not true?

 

[Type-IIx]

By how much

I could really only answer knowing your body mass and getting into it more deeply. I do offer consultation (the reason I don't get into dosages on forums), you can PM me if you'd like to pursue that.

 

[Type-IIx]

Dude mk677 increases natural gh levels . So those studies are discredited and not true?

That post was in jest. MK677 does increase natural GH, I'm just not yet convinced of its offering any superiority besides widespread legal commercial availability versus rhGH or even the secretagogues.

 

[Bigdiddy]

“However, MK-677, an orally active non-peptide mimic of GHSs, can stimulate the release of GH effectively by intravenous, subcutaneous, intraperitoneal, and oral administration.4,5 Growth hormone-releasing peptide (GHRP)-6, which is a synthetic hexapeptide, also shows potent GH-releasing activity after intravenous, subcutaneous, intranasal, and oral administration in humans.”