Test E/NPP cycle

[Cramps88]

Ah the start of week 12. Recovering nicely from my fucked up flu. Going to really push it harder if that is possible this last leg of the cycle. Upped my food intake to 4200,just felt that I needed to. My body was definitely screaming for more protein and carbs. So far my weight has gone from 238-254 and I've managed to drop my body fat to 16%,when it was at 20% to start. So far so good

 

[Kinetics63]

Subscribed! I'm really interested in following your blood work and watching how your estradiol control goes. I have all gear I need for a good couple of cycles and want to do it right this time. We seem to have a few things in common in our backgrounds, so I'm taking special interest in watching you evolve.

Like you I've ran a few cycles in my youth where I didn't know what I was doing. Also like you, I spent a good stretch locked up (3 1/2 years) and have spent the better part of the last decade and a half getting my life back. So at least I know somewhat of where you are coming from. Looking forward to your future post!

 

[Cramps88]

Thank you @Kinetics63. I have about three weeks left in this cycle. What I did is up my aromisin one dose per week. I'm feeling good gains are still coming so I'll be taking bloods again 48 hours after my cycles last pin and we will see where the levels are at. Remember you want your Estradiol levels above normal for muscle growth. This is something Roger Rabbit has talked about a number of times in various posts. I recommend going through some of his posts you can learn alot. Right now my only problem is the diet. I've seem to have hit a wall and I'm finding it hard to eat at this point. I'm having to force myself to get everything I need in my body. Food is just unappealing right now. Other than that my workouts are going great so no complaints there.

 

[Roger rabbit]

Easy way to get some added calories is olive oil. 1tbsp is 200 calories.

Take 1 tbsp peanut butter and 2 tbsp olive oil and you just ate like 600 calories my man[emoji106][emoji106][emoji106]


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[Cramps88]

Thanks I'll do that tonight. It feels like I just hit a wall with the food thing. When I started it was nothing but as the weeks went on it got more and more difficult.

 

[Kinetics63]

Thank you @Kinetics63. I have about three weeks left in this cycle. What I did is up my aromisin one dose per week. I'm feeling good gains are still coming so I'll be taking bloods again 48 hours after my cycles last pin and we will see where the levels are at. Remember you want your Estradiol levels above normal for muscle growth. This is something Roger Rabbit has talked about a number of times in various posts. I recommend going through some of his posts you can learn alot. Right now my only problem is the diet. I've seem to have hit a wall and I'm finding it hard to eat at this point. I'm having to force myself to get everything I need in my body. Food is just unappealing right now. Other than that my workouts are going great so no complaints there.

I was just going to give you the same sort of advice as Rodger Rabbit, but with coconut oil. I make Bullet Proof Coffee in the morning that consist of strong coffee, two tablespoons of unsalted butter (think HARD cream), two tablespoons of coconut oil and a little Splenda whipped up with a submersion blender. That's 440 calories that is easy to get down quickly.....As far as estradiol levels, I'm looking more at life extension than muscle building at this stage of my life. Don't get me wrong, I want to put on size, but size will be secondary to my health; the younger guys have more room for error that I. I'll be 54 in March and at my age it is extremely important to watch E2. I want to be around for a long time yet. I see some of the cycles guys are on in here and I take a moment to say a prayer for them at times. It genuinely worries me because I know they're not looking out 30, 40 or 50 years down the road.

Anyway, here is why my will aim to keep my E2 around 26 pg/ml even when on cycle though I know it will be a challenge. I will agree that it is much better let E2 get out of hand to the upside rather than crush it though.

"The Journal of the American Medical Association (JAMA) measured blood estradiol (a dominant estrogen) in 501 men with chronic heart failure. Compared to men in the balanced estrogen quintile, men in the lowest estradiol quintile were 317% more likely to die during a 3-year follow-up, while men in the highest estradiol quintile were 133% more likely to die.

The men in the balanced quintile—with the fewest deaths—had serum estradiol levels between 21.80 and 30.11 pg/mL.

The men in the highest quintile who suffered 133% increased death rates had serum estradiol levels of 37.40 pg/mL or above. The lowest estradiol group that suffered a 317% increased death rate had serum estradiol levels under 12.90 pg/mL.

The dramatic increase in mortality in men with unbalanced estrogen (i.e., estradiol levels either too high or too low) is nothing short of astounding. It uncovers a gaping hole in conventional cardiology practice that is easily correctable."

 

[Roger rabbit]

I was just going to give you the same sort of advice as Rodger Rabbit, but with coconut oil. I make Bullet Proof Coffee in the morning that consist of strong coffee, two tablespoons of unsalted butter (think HARD cream), two tablespoons of coconut oil and a little Splenda whipped up with a submersion blender. That's 440 calories that is easy to get down quickly.....As far as estradiol levels, I'm looking more at life extension than muscle building at this stage of my life. Don't get me wrong, I want to put on size, but size will be secondary to my health; the younger guys have more room for error that I. I'll be 54 in March and at my age it is extremely important to watch E2. I want to be around for a long time yet. I see some of the cycles guys are on in here and I take a moment to say a prayer for them at times. It genuinely worries me because I know they're not looking out 30, 40 or 50 years down the road.

Anyway, here is why my will aim to keep my E2 around 26 pg/ml even when on cycle though I know it will be a challenge. I will agree that it is much better let E2 get out of hand to the upside rather than crush it though.

"The Journal of the American Medical Association (JAMA) measured blood estradiol (a dominant estrogen) in 501 men with chronic heart failure. Compared to men in the balanced estrogen quintile, men in the lowest estradiol quintile were 317% more likely to die during a 3-year follow-up, while men in the highest estradiol quintile were 133% more likely to die.

The men in the balanced quintile—with the fewest deaths—had serum estradiol levels between 21.80 and 30.11 pg/mL.

The men in the highest quintile who suffered 133% increased death rates had serum estradiol levels of 37.40 pg/mL or above. The lowest estradiol group that suffered a 317% increased death rate had serum estradiol levels under 12.90 pg/mL.

The dramatic increase in mortality in men with unbalanced estrogen (i.e., estradiol levels either too high or too low) is nothing short of astounding. It uncovers a gaping hole in conventional cardiology practice that is easily correctable."

Can you put a link to the entire article?

From the way it is stated, it appears the people have already been diagnosed with chronic heart problems. Not that the estrogen is what caused the initial response.


Also, what are the age ranges in this study?




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[Kinetics63]

Can you put a link to the entire article?

From the way it is stated, it appears the people have already been diagnosed with chronic heart problems. Not that the estrogen is what caused the initial response.


Also, what are the age ranges in this study?




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You are correct in that these are men who already had heart issues. I've uploaded the file.

 

[Roger rabbit]

You are correct in that these are men who already had heart issues. I've uploaded the file.[/

So a few observations on first page alone,

All had really poor heart conditions left fractual ventrical issues as well as heart disease.

Second, all cause of death was put into the statistics here. So if one died from a car wreck within that time frame of study it would go in as a death from the study and would be added to the % from which ever time frame they died in.

I obviously haven't read this entire article yet, but unless you have this exact issue I wouldn't be following this as a guide as to what to do for your AI estrogen control.

One reason the people in the higher estrogen had issues is because of the extra water retention and a already horrible heart did not help the issue since that would have elevated their blood pressure. ( not to mention they more than likely already had other health issues along the way as well)

But, if you don't know where your body normally rests with your estrogen then I wouldn't be trying to get my numbers down based off this study.

I'm sure @dr.jim could dive deeper into this study but I don't feel one should just select a number and run with it.




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[Roger rabbit]

Not sure what happened there[emoji115][emoji115] it added my post to your post... weird


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[Kinetics63]

Can you put a link to the entire article?

From the way it is stated, it appears the people have already been diagnosed with chronic heart problems. Not that the estrogen is what caused the initial response.


Also, what are the age ranges in this study?




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This study I attached did have this comment in it which is why I stay concerned with keeping my E2 within the normal range: "In previous studies in normal male populations, mortality was highest in those men with estradiol concentrations toward the low end of the normal range. In our study, these men had a loss of renal function and decreased hemoglobin concentration, which may have contributed to the low estradiol and mortality. On other hand, the high estradiol group demonstrated a deterioration of liver function."

 

[Kinetics63]

That is weird! I read it though....Yeah I don't know what the heck to do. Maybe I'm being overly cautious and it wouldn't hurt to let my E2 be temporarily high during cycle. It's just when you get to my age life gets just that much more precious and I don't want to do anything to fuck up what little I do have left. I have no doubt that AAS will help put life in the years I do have left....That's why I'm watching @Cramps88 as he post his blood work. I want to see how his AI doses affect his E2 levels.

 

[Roger rabbit]

This study I attached did have this comment in it which is why I stay concerned with keeping my E2 within the normal range: "In previous studies in normal male populations, mortality was highest in those men with estradiol concentrations toward the low end of the normal range. In our study, these men had a loss of renal function and decreased hemoglobin concentration, which may have contributed to the low estradiol and mortality. On other hand, the high estradiol group demonstrated a deterioration of liver function."

Yes, having too low of estrogen is horrible. That is why many on this board when I see people popping AI like candy, I try to help and give them the advice that is no good....Not to mention AI also messes with lipids like crazy.

This is exactly why people should pay attention to bloods before, during and after a cycle. Organ can and will be effected by elevated estrogen, but from my understanding this would have to be a long term raise in estrogen to get those nasty issue. Of course, one could see this issue arising with blood during cycle or even after and could adjust from that point.




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[Cramps88]

So from what I'm seeing these were already people with chronic issues and their charts did not scream exercise and healthy habits. Don't get me wrong I was not thrilled at my levels when I did my mid cycle bloods but while on my blast I do not see the problem with elevated e2 levels as long as there are no symptoms and you keep them in a manageable range. I'm not an expert but I don't see how this article applies to people that use aas for muscle gain and strength training.

 

[Roger rabbit]

So from what I'm seeing these were already people with chronic issues and their charts did not scream exercise and healthy habits. Don't get me wrong I was not thrilled at my levels when I did my mid cycle bloods but while on my blast I do not see the problem with elevated e2 levels as long as there are no symptoms and you keep them in a manageable range. I'm not an expert but I don't see how this article applies to people that use aas for muscle gain and strength training.

It honestly doesn't and you are absolutely corrects, these were not healthy specimens in life lol.

Keep on getting those gains brother and stay safe my man.




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[Cramps88]

Thanks, it does help to have people like you to lean on and learn from

 

[Kinetics63]

Yes, having too low of estrogen is horrible. That is why many on this board when I see people popping AI like candy, I try to help and give them the advice that is no good....Not to mention AI also messes with lipids like crazy.

This is exactly why people should pay attention to bloods before, during and after a cycle. Organ can and will be effected by elevated estrogen, but from my understanding this would have to be a long term raise in estrogen to get those nasty issue. Of course, one could see this issue arising with blood during cycle or even after and could adjust from that point.




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I agree 100% which is why I'll be following @Cramps88 to see how his AI doses affect his E2. Like I said earlier: I'd rather the E2 be on the higher side than crash it.

 

[Kinetics63]

So from what I'm seeing these were already people with chronic issues and their charts did not scream exercise and healthy habits. Don't get me wrong I was not thrilled at my levels when I did my mid cycle bloods but while on my blast I do not see the problem with elevated e2 levels as long as there are no symptoms and you keep them in a manageable range. I'm not an expert but I don't see how this article applies to people that use aas for muscle gain and strength training.

No, if you read through it, they do mention studies done on normal male populations, where the mortality was highest in those men with estradiol concentrations toward the low end of the normal range. I just couldn't find that specific study they refereed to so I was stuck with posting what I could. The bottom line is you're screwing with your hormones and the long term effects are very real. What I get from it is you don't want to CRASH your E2 ever. Which is I'm sure why @Roger rabbit doesn't like seeing people eat AI's like candy.

 

[Roger rabbit]

I agree 100% which is why I'll be following @Cramps88 to see how his AI doses affect his E2. Like I said earlier: I'd rather the E2 be on the higher side than crash it.

Have you had any blood work to see where your natural estrogen lies?


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[Kinetics63]

Have you had any blood work to see where your natural estrogen lies?


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Funny you mention that because my doctor just had me get blood work done last Wednesday. The last time I asked him to do it he didn't have estradiol or free testosterone checked, but my total testosterone came in at 606 which I didn't think was bad for a guy my age. The test he had me go for last week was (as I read off the list here): ESTRADIOL, HCG, B SUBUNIT, TUMOR MARK, LUTENIZING HORMONE (LH), TESTOSTERONE, TOTAL & FREE.

I have gynecomastia from doing cycles two decades ago for which I'm trying to deal with before I start cycling again. Which is the main reason I went to see him. He seems to think it's more from being a chronic pot smoker most of my life as apposed to AAS use. I also have a consultation with a plastic surgeon to have the surgery in February.