Understanding DNP practice

[MairUnderwood(Researcher)]

Hey everyone. One of my students (Niroshan) and I are trying to understand the practice of DNP in bodybuilding. Can you please help by correcting or adding to the below? Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated. Sorry it is so long but we want to understand properly. Feel free to only answer part.


1. What substances should you and shouldn’t you use with DNP?

(a) What shouldn’t you use with DNP? We’ve heard alcohol, illicit drugs like ecstasy, any others? Certain AASs?

(b) What should you or do you use with DNP? Certain AASs? pre-workouts? other fat loss supplements?

2. How do you practice DNP?

From my understanding you should:

(a) probably start with a low dose first (i.e. 200mg) and slowly increase after a minimum of 4 days if you need more, up to a maximum dose around 600-800mg.

(b) not be on DNP for more than 10 days.

(c) eat mostly fat and protein, avoiding carbohydrates where possible, to avoid excessive heat.

(d) avoid using DNP before sleep so that you don’t get night sweats.

(e) use air-conditioning and cold showers to stay cool.

Is this correct? How does this align with your practices? Is there anything I missed that you might do to reduce risk?


3. What is your understanding of DNP in terms of:

(a) how it works in the body?

(b) risks and side effects?

 

[Sworder]

Like I said, you can challenge people's ideas without being a dick.

Nothing you've done above has constituted debate. Its basically just been you being an entitled cunt and running down another member that is trying to learn.

Like she owes you or Meso something because if her chosen topic of study.

"You're building your career off our backs, pay up to Anabolic labs!"

Okay buddy!

 

[Havah]

People using insuline should be a lot more concerned about diabetes in the long run
For some reason some users think it actually prevents diabetes, lol

 

[OnTheRize]

Lol good point if I’d just take a 5 second pause I’d probly ignore the shit anyways

I don’t have a problem with anyone who uses dnp I just see these pros like Chris bumstead n victor martinez an Seth feroce an Weasley vissers n think there’s no way in hell these guys would ever take that stuff -and I’ve ran dnp at 4-600, once. Sure

Yeah brother, I could definitely hit the pause button more often before engaging with a brick wall. When members show there asses from time to time...or in some cases very often, it's hard not to pick up the sledgehammer.
What are they gonna do anyway? Call for Meso backup? Even if other members support guys who post this kind of content they're not going to show up in a thread where that guy is posting straight up fuckery.
All that aside...It's a godamn forum for christ sake!
If dudes house was in foreclosure, if his wife had a chronic illness, if he just had his foot amputated...I'd totally get the behavior but for fucks sake...what gives?

Yeah, I'm not here to be a part of a group. I'm here to share my experience and learn from others. Doesn't mean I agree with everyone or that I dont get into shit from time to time.

Like I said, you can challenge people's ideas without being a dick.

Nothing you've done above has constituted debate. Its basically just been you being an entitled cunt and running down another member that is trying to learn.

Like she owes you or Meso something because if her chosen topic of study.

"You're building your career off our backs, pay up to Anabolic labs!"

You do understand how laughable that bullshit is, right?

You've dropped some solid knowledge in other threads, and that's always appreciated. But you seriously come of like an overly pretentious and self aggrandizing teenager here.

A regular Holden Caulfield, calling out the phony doctor

Not trying to be a part of a group.
Share experience.
Learn from others.
Only a tool agrees with everyone.
We all get into shit from time to time, it's forgivable.
Don't be a fucking dick when challenging an idea.
Don't run down people who are trying to learn.
Don't be an egotistical asshole all the time.

Very well said.

Everyone has their moments and it's all good but we can all wear our big boy pants here and no one needs to go to the "time-out corner".
Bigbaldbeardguy posted something I thought was incredibly pertinent. It said something to the effect of
"The 3 hardest things to say are:
(1) I was wrong
(2) I need help
(3) Worschestshire"
I've never seen Sworder post anything like either of the first 2. I'd have a shit ton more respect for him if he did though.
To his credit, he does have some high quality content in some threads. I just wish he'd put a yoke on his ego occasionally and realize this forum isn't a godamn turfwar.

Very much yes to the first part.

Though, admittedly, I'll at times unhide and read the ignored posts just to see what's fuckery has been spewed.

Thanks brother. Didn't see the unhide button till you said that. Going to go back and look at wtf happened.

 

[MairUnderwood(Researcher)]

People using insuline should be a lot more concerned about diabetes in the long run
For some reason some users think it actually prevents diabetes, lol

I thought bodybuilders were delusional about insulin use preventing diabetes but it actually might according to the endocrinologist I work with. Research suggests it might. No research on its use in bodybuilding yet, and may never be. I've got a paper under review with the British journal of sports medicine at the moment that I wrote with this endocrinologist. It's on bodybuilder understandings of insulin. Turns out most of what they think is right. I'll do a video on it soon

 

[Havah]

I thought bodybuilders were delusional about insulin use preventing diabetes but it actually might according to the endocrinologist I work with. Research suggests it might. No research on its use in bodybuilding yet, and may never be. I've got a paper under review with the British journal of sports medicine at the moment that I wrote with this endocrinologist. It's on bodybuilder understandings of insulin. Turns out most of what they think is right. I'll do a video on it soon

Please tag me in when you do because i have no idea how that can work out

 

[Millard]

Yes, I read what you type. However, I do not believe the words that you type.

Exactly that is my point. We do this for a living, we put our heart and soul into this place. You want to make some money, so you come here and instead of reading the materials we have put our blood, sweat and tears into. You want to get spoonfed.

That's a lie that you have read the threads, I can see through your profile which threads you have viewed. I can literally count what threads you have been to, and replied to. Don't lie to me. Put in the work!

You can totally see why I am outraged by the sticky thing? Really? You are so full of shit, I like taking up arguments just for the sake of arguing. I don't even have a valid reason for being upset about the sticky. Or do I? Now you are probably all confused

If you are going to take something away from the forums let it be this.

"We don't like to spoon-feed lazy people who come with false pretenses pretending to 'help us.'"

P.S. It is sink or swim on this forum, Millard won't save you.

Whoah, @Sworder. I can say @MairUnderwood(Researcher) certainly does not need saving. She has been perfectly capable of handling herself in the face of a sometimes hostile and antagonistic reception.

I'm surprised you don't agree that her research has the potential to benefit the steroid-using community. It's a marginalized group that is regularly demonized in society. Changing perceptions, changing laws and increasing access to health professionals is unequivocally a good thing.

To be fair, I can understand suspicions about researchers because many end up furthering the demonization of steroid users.

With the Pope-type researchers seeking to psychopathologize each and every last bodybuilder and the WADA-funded researchers seeking to promote a moral agenda, you are justified to question their motives of academics who make an appearance of the forums.

From what I've seen and read, @MairUnderwood(Researcher) is doing exactly what she stated: VVV

I am an anthropologist. I conduct participant observation in enhanced communities. Have been for the last few years. Mostly in closed facebook groups up until now. I collect their stories and publish them in academic journals. Through actually working with consumers and prioritising their perspective over my own (rather than surveying them or interviewing - both methods limited by the researcher's preconceptions) i find out stuff that most people don't know about enhanced drug use

i give back to this community through my research and that is enough for most people including some of those who run this forum - otherwise I wouldn't be here. i started this research for career reasons, intending to only do it for a year and move on, but as I got into i realised how much we as a society have dropped the ball with regards this issue and really believe in what I do. I could actually make a lot more career progression elsewhere.

I am an anthropologist and I have been happily working in bodybuilding communities for the last 4 years. I have focussed on increasing understanding and support for image and performance enhancing drug users and have received quite a bit of support from the community for my efforts.

 

[Sworder]

Whoah, @Sworder. I can say @MairUnderwood(Researcher) certainly does not need saving. She has been perfectly capable of handling herself in the face of a sometimes hostile and antagonistic reception.

I saw that she was capable of holding her own, impressive. More than can be said by three other grown men in this thread.

I'm surprised you don't agree that her research has the potential to benefit the steroid-using community. It's a marginalized group that is regularly demonized in society. Changing perceptions, changing laws and increasing access to health professionals is unequivocally a good thing.

From my understanding of her research.. And I honestly don't think you have heard her interview on the radio88. I felt like it was a very unfair representation of the BB community.

Furthermore I think she could spend her time as an anthropologist tackling issues that actually mean something to our society. I don't want to go on a rant here but I would have liked to see more research that opens the public's eye about AAS culture among celebrities, the negative connotation to females with muscles, or something else that will empower people. Instead we are focusing on the Zyzz phenomena?
I have a lot of opinions and thoughts about this and I don't want to make it too long or it seems like I am attacking her again which isn't my point.

She says she is all about giving back to the community. Let's have her pharmacology friend come on here instead and then we can have a Q&A. I think we could learn a lot from that.

 

[MairUnderwood(Researcher)]

To be fair, I can understand suspicions about researchers because many end up furthering the demonization of steroid users.

With the Pope-type researchers seeking to psychopathologize each and every last bodybuilder and the WADA-funded researchers seeking to promote a moral agenda, you are justified to question their motives of academics who make an appearance of the forums.

As always, thanks Millard for your support. It means a lot to me. I too can understand suspicions about researchers given what has come before. I didn't think much of Pope when I met him at a conference. has no interest in hearing anyone's perspective but his own. Even though he admitted that I knew a side of bodybuilding he knew nothing about he still had very little interest in hearing it. He seems to have his heart set on psychopathologising as you say.
Interesting you mention WADA as I have just collaborated with an endocrinologist (Richard Holt) who developed a test for growth hormone for WADA but he seems to break the mould re the moral high ground that is typical of that crowd. He had previously written a paper on how athletes know more about enhancement than academics do, so when I had a few bodybuilders who wanted me to evaluate their insulin knowledge (a couple of big names in insulin for bodybuilding who disagree and wanted to know who was right) I called on Richard to help (as I am way out of my depth re insulin pharmacology). Turns out the bodybuilders are mostly correct.
Here's the link to the paper which is currently under review in case you are interested:

Anabolicus Maximus: Underground insulin use among bodybuilders

Please tag me in when you do because i have no idea how that can work out

Havah: I'll try and make a video soon but YouTube has suspended my channel so it may take a while. In the meantime the bit on diabetes prevention is at the bottom of page 9 and top of page 10 in the paper I have linked above. As I said I was surprised myself - I thought they were kidding themselves that insulin use may be a form of harm reduction - but it may well be.

 

[Sworder]

bodybuilders

What's your definition of a bodybuilder? Am reading your paper, I didn't see that term defined.

Also, what percentage of "bodybuilders" are online and part of a forum where safety "may" get mitigated vs the "bodybuilders" not part of a forum? Do you see any differences in risks/damages between those two groups?

 

[MairUnderwood(Researcher)]

From my understanding of her research.. And I honestly don't think you have heard her interview on the radio88. I felt like it was a very unfair representation of the BB community.

Furthermore I think she could spend her time as an anthropologist tackling issues that actually mean something to our society. I don't want to go on a rant here but I would have liked to see more research that opens the public's eye about AAS culture among celebrities, the negative connotation to females with muscles, or something else that will empower people. Instead we are focusing on the Zyzz phenomena?

I started with Zyzz and his fans because they are a fairly homogeneous group which makes them easier to study. As I am sure you know enhanced bodybuilders are a very diverse group so it was easier to start with a group who share much the same culture/philosophy.

Celebrities woud be interesting - not sure how I woudl go about it though.

Females are my next project.

I think increasing people's (consumers and medicos) understanding of the harm reduction practices that can be employed when using AAS (and their limitations) is pretty important which has been my goal up until now (paper is currently under review). Would direct you to the Youtube video describing this paper but bloody YouTube have suspended me.

I know you are hung up on me asking about brojobs but it is interesting to me because I started in the Zyzz community where 'no homo' and 'yes homo' are common expressions, and it seemed a logical extension of their ironic heterosexual recuperation (i.e. pretending you are gay to prove you are straight).

Most of my work is not in the area of sexuality. In fact the vast majority is on drugs use.

She says she is all about giving back to the community. Let's have her pharmacology friend come on here instead and then we can have a Q&A. I think we could learn a lot from that.

I doubt he would do a q and a on a forum but I am hoping he might do a youtube interview or something as I can't do justice to the pharmacology side of things - I can only describe the practice of use, the symbolism, experience etc.

 

[MairUnderwood(Researcher)]

What's your definition of a bodybuilder? Am reading your paper, I didn't see that term defined.

Good point - i probably should add that to the paper. I take a fairly broad view of the term which I know some would disagree with. Some would say only 'serious' bodybuilders can be called bodybuilders (e.g. not Zyzz) or only those who compete. But I think as most enhanced drug use occurs among recreational bodybuilders, and defining 'serious' is near impossible as it is so contentious, that we should use the term 'bodybuilder' to describe anyone who is attempting to build muscle for primarily aesthetic/social reasons (not primarily functional reasons as is the case with powerlifters and other athletes)

 

[Sworder]

Celebrities woud be interesting - not sure how I woudl go about it though.

Do you feel like you have been in this community long enough to understand which celebrities use PED/AAS?

Females are my next project.

Cool! Would be fun to hear the specifics.


Also, what percentage of "bodybuilders" are online and part of a forum where safety "may" get mitigated vs the "bodybuilders" not part of a forum? Do you see any differences in risks/damages between those two groups?

 

[MairUnderwood(Researcher)]

Do you feel like you have been in this community long enough to understand which celebrities use PED/AAS?

I think i am getting better at identifying the enhanced look but I don't think I am an expert by any stretch.

I started this research with the preconception that all enhanced guys would be huge - how wrong I was! (no offence everyone but some enhanced guys mustn't pay enough attention to training and diet as they look like they could be natty)

Also, what percentage of "bodybuilders" are online and part of a forum where safety "may" get mitigated vs the "bodybuilders" not part of a forum? Do you see any differences in risks/damages between those two groups?

I am hoping that in the next project I will start exploring bodybuilding among women, and take my explorations of men into offline as well (fingers crossed for grant money) as I do think there would be great differences. As far as I know there has been no research on the % of bodybuilders who use forums but from my experience the guys that I have found through online sites are much more risk averse than some of the guys that have volunteered as a result of my TV appearances for example.
Past research described a typology of enhancing drug users. I only really get the 'expert' type through the forums (knowledgeable, risk averse). I would be really keen to get more of the 'YOLO' as I think that is where the greatest risk-taking happens (and where the greatest harm reduction needs to happen).

Looking forward to hearing what you thought of my insulin pharmacology paper

 

[Sworder]

Looking forward to hearing what you thought of my insulin pharmacology paper

First of all, "Alan" is an idiot.

I think that the paper in general was okay. A bar graph would be nice. And defining "bodybuilders" will be hard I agree.

You are wanting to group us all together so badly! The truth is that the use of insulin is extremely diverse.
Am sure you have noticed there is a large gap in knowledge between users. However, that doesn't help you write a paper. I know...

 

[MairUnderwood(Researcher)]

First of all, "Alan" is an idiot.

I think that the paper in general was okay. A bar graph would be nice. And defining "bodybuilders" will be hard I agree.

You are wanting to group us all together so badly! The truth is that the use of insulin is extremely diverse.
Am sure you have noticed there is a large gap in knowledge between users. However, that doesn't help you write a paper. I know...

The funny thing is you probably know who 'Alan' is as he is quite vocal and prominent with regards insulin. Pity I can't tell you but that would be breaking my ethical agreement.
Yes i should probably add that there were vastly different degrees of knowledge. And yes I couldn't believe the differences in dosing! funny that it was the recreational guys that used the most.
I'm glad that it was 'OK' - it's pretty hard to do justice to such a topic in such a measly word count. I have another paper that is more about the history, practice and experience of insulin but I am waiting to publish this one first. This second paper is more in my comfort zone as it is more anthropological. I don't usually 'evaluate' bodybuilder knowledge, more report it, but they insisted that they wanted me to

 

[Sworder]

I'm glad that it was 'OK' - it's pretty hard to do justice to such a topic in such a measly word count.

I agree!

 

[Eman]

can you please give examples of these things that increase body temperature (for a social scientist that really knows very little about how bodies work)?

Things that the general user may want to consider would be stimulants, such as ECA or clenbuterol.

Thyroid hormone is something I see a lot of new users including because of the reports that it's needed during a DNP cycle - it is not and the idea that it is probably began with one study from Sweden I think it was. It's most certainly not needed to assist in fat loss.

Recreational drugs like MDMA and alcohol, these should not be combined with DNP. The human body is incredibly efficient at temperature regulation - adding these recreational drugs hinders the bodies ability to thermoregulate.

Trenbolone. This is often included with DNP cycles... Again, it's just not needed and will only complicate the DNP cycle. One of the biggest complaints with tren is night sweats. One of the biggest complaints with DNP is night sweats. Let's not combine these two.

DNP is as close to a "magic pill" as it gets - no one needs anything to make the magic happen faster. You can quite literally see daily changes in the mirror with this chemical - but users want to include 5 other things to make the DNP work "better". Why? We all want more, more, more... But these combinations are unnecessary.

How long does it take to saturate your system and how do you know?

It's generally thought to have a 24-48hr half life or more and that's typically what I'm referring to - so a few days. However, there is no published human data that definitively proves what the real length of time is as far as I am aware. I believe Cutting and Tainter were the first to estimate this but that was nearly 100 years ago now...

excuse my ignorance by why is this important?

This is entirely anecdotal moreso than important. Others can confirm but carbs increase your temp far more than the actual dose of the DNP does.

For instance, I can take a dose of DNP on an empty stomach and body temp and night sweats are much less. If I do the same thing and then eat a piece of cake, candy, bread, etc you can expect to have a rough and sweaty night.

As such, I wouldn't be as concerned about the nightly dosing so much as I would be with the nightly dosing in combination with a bunch of carbs. Also, the carbs aren't always the culprit with night sweats - it's most likely due to how are bodies process oxygen at night and how DNP effects this process. (I believe the book "A Most Misunderstood Molecule" delves into this a bit more or I may have read it elsewhere, I can't recall the actual process off the top of my head but you may like the book from an anthropology perspective.)

Hope this helps.

 

[Eman]

sure members are going to give some quality info but no ones a walking dictionary

Speak for yourself.

 

[MairUnderwood(Researcher)]

Hope this helps.

It helps a lot, thanks so much @Eman

 

[Dead]

People using insuline should be a lot more concerned about diabetes in the long run
For some reason some users think it actually prevents diabetes, lol

Oh look here a stupid post by you. The pancreas has no negative feedback reaction to exogenous insulin. Nor have any cases ever been reported of inducing type 2 diabetes (that’s insulin insensitivity) through exogenous insulin