Why run anavar and tren together?

It surprised me as well; I was expecting high liver enzyme values. Dbol gives me horrible lethargy as well (unfortunately, I don't have bloodwork from my short-lived dbol run) but anavar, tbol, and anadrol do not. Just like primo and 1-testosterone, anavar does nuke my libido (which is otherwise very good) after ~1 week of use. This is super annoying, because I love primo and anavar.
Do you know your E2 on this combo?

My theory is that if primo lowers e2 a lot in a person, then their Shbg is even further lowered, and I’ve heard from many people that their libido sucked when their Shbg was in the single digits.

For Anavar, I don’t know if this impacts E2 as much as primo/masteron, but I have seen bloodwork where Anavar also did lower somebodies E2 from low 40s to 30ish pg/ml and their SHBG was brought down from 16 down to 8nmol/L.

And the combo of low E2, which then lowers SHBG even further than a DHT derivative normally would with low estrogen compared to if someone maintained normal E2. Since E2 contributes to maintaining Shbg. And I’ve heard from many that’s a combo for poor libido, low E2 and SHBG
 
Do you know your E2 on this combo?

My theory is that if primo lowers e2 a lot in a person, then their Shbg is even further lowered, and I’ve heard from many people that their libido sucked when their Shbg was in the single digits.

For Anavar, I don’t know if this impacts E2 as much as primo/masteron, but I have seen bloodwork where Anavar also did lower somebodies E2 from low 40s to 30ish pg/ml and their SHBG was brought down from 16 down to 8nmol/L.

And the combo of low E2, which then lowers SHBG even further than a DHT derivative normally would with low estrogen compared to if someone maintained normal E2. Since E2 contributes to maintaining Shbg. And I’ve heard from many that’s a combo for poor libido, low E2 and SHBG
Primo fucked my libido when i was on it 5 months ago. My shbg was 8.

My shbg is a 4 as of a few days ago and I can't stop thinking about sex. I jerk off 5 times a day and still wanna bang my wife and other ppl

E2 lowering 10 pts isnt a true lower..

Mast doesn't lower e2 either
 
Primo fucked my libido when i was on it 5 months ago. My shbg was 8.

My shbg is a 4 as of a few days ago and I can't stop thinking about sex. I jerk off 5 times a day and still wanna bang my wife and other ppl

E2 lowering 10 pts isnt a true lower..

Mast doesn't lower e2 either
I remember hearing you mentioned that, sucks man.

Also I remember you said you tried raising e2 with ethinyl estradiol correct ? But it didn’t work ? Ethinyl estradiol isn’t the same as estradiol/ estradiol valerate used to hrt. Ethinyl estradiol is active in the 20-30microgram range as opposed to the 2-5mg range for regular estradiol valerate.

So that’s def why it didn’t show up on your blood test as having raised your levels of e2 at all.


Also, I hear ya, I’ve also heard people say the same as you that their Shbg was low and their libido was top notch. I’ve just also heard the opposite. And in my case specially, I think I have personally noticed that going prolonged periods with lower Shbg, my libido is worse for me personally. I think it gets better for me when i implement something that raises it. Not to high levels obviously, because I haven’t been able to get over 14nmol/L Shbg while on the dose of gear im on yet. It’s slowly increasing though.


I would call a 25-30% decrease in e2 as statistically significant. Especially over the span of time being 2 weeks in which Anavar did this at only 5mg per day.

In terms of masteron not lowering e2, I’ve def seen that happen on so much bloodwork at this point. But I’m def curious to see labs from either you or someone else where that isn’t true. Didn’t you at once say primo lowered your e2 ? Or was that someone else ? If primo did it I don’t see why masteron could also.
 
I remember hearing you mentioned that, sucks man.

Also I remember you said you tried raising e2 with ethinyl estradiol correct ? But it didn’t work ? Ethinyl estradiol isn’t the same as estradiol/ estradiol valerate used to hrt. Ethinyl estradiol is active in the 20-30microgram range as opposed to the 2-5mg range for regular estradiol valerate.

So that’s def why it didn’t show up on your blood test as having raised your levels of e2 at all.


Also, I hear ya, I’ve also heard people say the same as you that their Shbg was low and their libido was top notch. I’ve just also heard the opposite. And in my case specially, I think I have personally noticed that going prolonged periods with lower Shbg, my libido is worse for me personally. I think it gets better for me when i implement something that raises it. Not to high levels obviously, because I haven’t been able to get over 14nmol/L Shbg while on the dose of gear im on yet. It’s slowly increasing though.


I would call a 25-30% decrease in e2 as statistically significant. Especially over the span of time being 2 weeks in which Anavar did this at only 5mg per day.

In terms of masteron not lowering e2, I’ve def seen that happen on so much bloodwork at this point. But I’m def curious to see labs from either you or someone else where that isn’t true. Didn’t you at once say primo lowered your e2 ? Or was that someone else ? If primo did it I don’t see why masteron could also.
I used estradiol valerate and ethinyl estradiol. Slipped it under the tongue as sublingual

Even hcg didn't make it budge

I think it's more than just shbg, even prolonged. Probably just some compounds don't agree. My shbg has been single digits since December. I have atleast 6 blood tests since then to show it.

I would have to see the comparison of test to e2. To say it does lower it.


Removing 300 primo and adding , 600 mast shot my e2 up to 142 pts. It tripled.


I haven't seen much blood work with mast where they could compare it side by side and they weren't on an AI. You also never hear "mast crashed my e2" and have blood work to prove it. Only feels.
 
OK, what I am about to write is a fairly dense post:

Attempting to raise SHBG to treat sexual dysfunction/hypogonadal symptoms is irrational in my view. My view, unlike the contrary view that low SHBG can cause hypogonadal symptoms, is at least supported by some emergent published evidence and a logic that I will try to explain clearly:

While there is valid evidence that high SHBG & low free T (low free androgen index; low FAI) is associated with hypogonadal symptoms; there is no evidence (that has been subjected to rigorous research & statistical methods) that low SHBG is associated with hypogonadal symptoms that I have seen.

While I certainly see anecdotes ( including from those whose anecdotes I assign more than a scintilla of value like @GreenAmine ) and informal hypothesizing about low SHBG & hypogonadal symptoms, the more likely (in my estimation) modulating influence involves megalin (SHBG promoter gene) and nongenomic, at least in part, action (e.g., at Sertoli cell surfaces).

I consider it unlikely that lowering SHBG causally induces hypogonadal symptoms considering the rapid onset of these symptoms, and what we know about the SHBG promoter gene - megalin (though admittedly, what we know is markedly limited).

Rather than low SHBG inducing hypogonadal symptoms per se, there may be an influence on spermatogenesis & sexual function mediated by SHBG-androgen (i.e., different androgens with SHBG binding affinity form a different complex with SHBG; e.g., methenolone-SHBG or boldenone-SHBG) complexes that are taken up into Sertoli cells (testicular cells that are involved in spermatogenesis). We have evidence of megalin's influence on secondary sex characteristics & SHBG-T complexes being taken up into Sertoli cells via megalin receptors, and criticially, that have been shown to influence PKA activity by nongenomic mechanisms (e.g., via cell-surface receptors).

The rapidity of onset (after, e.g., front-loading EQ, Primo) in hypogonadal symptoms suggests that, perhaps, there is an interaction between AR & SHBG at the cell surface (without uptake therein), increasing PKA activity via megalin receptor. There is evidence that the intracellular interaction of the AR-SHBG complex with megalin receptor may increase PKA activity and this could influence AR-mediated transcription by altering AR phosphorylation and that of its coactivators.

Nobody has ascertained at what SHBG concentration problems arise (sexual dysfunction & hypogonadal symptoms) - but I suspect that it is extremely low.

Conclusion:
Rather than low SHBG inducing hypogonadal symptoms per se, perhaps it is more likely that the particular effects of different AR-SHBG complexes in and at Sertoli cells (and perhaps, speculatively, via other cell surface receptors, e.g., in the hypothalamo-pituitary axis), differentially influence hypogonadal symptoms.

My view is supported by the frequent observation of the onset of hypogonadal symptoms being a rapid (i.e., nongenomic) effect, e.g., the onset of these symptoms after a Primo or EQ bolus (especially front-loaded) is consistently reported as rapid (too rapid to be mediated exclusively by genomic action; reduction to SHBG, etc.)
 
OK, what I am about to write is a fairly dense post:

Attempting to raise SHBG to treat sexual dysfunction/hypogonadal symptoms is irrational in my view. My view, unlike the contrary view that low SHBG can cause hypogonadal symptoms, is at least supported by some emergent published evidence and a logic that I will try to explain clearly:

While there is valid evidence that high SHBG & low free T (low free androgen index; low FAI) is associated with hypogonadal symptoms; there is no evidence (that has been subjected to rigorous research & statistical methods) that low SHBG is associated with hypogonadal symptoms that I have seen.

While I certainly see anecdotes ( including from those whose anecdotes I assign more than a scintilla of value like @GreenAmine ) and informal hypothesizing about low SHBG & hypogonadal symptoms, the more likely (in my estimation) modulating influence involves megalin (SHBG promoter gene) and nongenomic, at least in part, action (e.g., at Sertoli cell surfaces).

I consider it unlikely that lowering SHBG causally induces hypogonadal symptoms considering the rapid onset of these symptoms, and what we know about the SHBG promoter gene - megalin (though admittedly, what we know is markedly limited).

Rather than low SHBG inducing hypogonadal symptoms per se, there may be an influence on spermatogenesis & sexual function mediated by SHBG-androgen (i.e., different androgens with SHBG binding affinity form a different complex with SHBG; e.g., methenolone-SHBG or boldenone-SHBG) complexes that are taken up into Sertoli cells (testicular cells that are involved in spermatogenesis). We have evidence of megalin's influence on secondary sex characteristics & SHBG-T complexes being taken up into Sertoli cells via megalin receptors, and criticially, that have been shown to influence PKA activity by nongenomic mechanisms (e.g., via cell-surface receptors).

The rapidity of onset (after, e.g., front-loading EQ, Primo) in hypogonadal symptoms suggests that, perhaps, there is an interaction between AR & SHBG at the cell surface (without uptake therein), increasing PKA activity via megalin receptor. There is evidence that the intracellular interaction of the AR-SHBG complex with megalin receptor may increase PKA activity and this could influence AR-mediated transcription by altering AR phosphorylation and that of its coactivators.

Nobody has ascertained at what SHBG concentration problems arise (sexual dysfunction & hypogonadal symptoms) - but I suspect that it is extremely low.

Conclusion:
Rather than low SHBG inducing hypogonadal symptoms per se, perhaps it is more likely that the particular effects of different AR-SHBG complexes in and at Sertoli cells (and perhaps, speculatively, via other cell surface receptors, e.g., in the hypothalamo-pituitary axis), differentially influence hypogonadal symptoms.

My view is supported by the frequent observation of the onset of hypogonadal symptoms being a rapid (i.e., nongenomic) effect, e.g., the onset of these symptoms after a Primo or EQ bolus (especially front-loaded) is consistently reported as rapid (too rapid to be mediated exclusively by genomic action; reduction to SHBG, etc.)
Regarding the specific Shbg complexes with different steroids, I think this might be exactly why with things like proviron there is “two weeks of insane libido that then falls off a cliff “. Proviron has the highest affinity but also a very short half life for instant effects one can perceive, maybe that’s why it’s able to cause an acute modulation of Shbg and increase libido, but due to its high affinity, it uses all Shbg locally. Not globally in serum. This is why you might be seeing an instant effect in dropped libido without Shbg globally decreasing in serum yet.
I wouldn’t think there would necessarily have to be an initial fall in serum Shbg, if the steroid binding to it has potent enough affinity. It’s possible, that the steroid with high affinity has not just bound to enough Shbg yet globally to induce this level of global serum reduction. Either way, if it’s already occupied the Shbg in the area, it might be fully saturated and have been able to work it’s shbg complex magic however it influences transcription or whatever else.

It might be possible to try icing testicles and re-warming to attempt to bring more blood and Shbg into the area. Replacing it with fresh supply. Just like with an injury, same idea. It could test this part of the idea.

This wouldn’t do anything for the brain portion..Unless you really wanna get creative.
 
OK, what I am about to write is a fairly dense post:

Attempting to raise SHBG to treat sexual dysfunction/hypogonadal symptoms is irrational in my view. My view, unlike the contrary view that low SHBG can cause hypogonadal symptoms, is at least supported by some emergent published evidence and a logic that I will try to explain clearly:

While there is valid evidence that high SHBG & low free T (low free androgen index; low FAI) is associated with hypogonadal symptoms; there is no evidence (that has been subjected to rigorous research & statistical methods) that low SHBG is associated with hypogonadal symptoms that I have seen.

While I certainly see anecdotes ( including from those whose anecdotes I assign more than a scintilla of value like @GreenAmine ) and informal hypothesizing about low SHBG & hypogonadal symptoms, the more likely (in my estimation) modulating influence involves megalin (SHBG promoter gene) and nongenomic, at least in part, action (e.g., at Sertoli cell surfaces).

I consider it unlikely that lowering SHBG causally induces hypogonadal symptoms considering the rapid onset of these symptoms, and what we know about the SHBG promoter gene - megalin (though admittedly, what we know is markedly limited).

Rather than low SHBG inducing hypogonadal symptoms per se, there may be an influence on spermatogenesis & sexual function mediated by SHBG-androgen (i.e., different androgens with SHBG binding affinity form a different complex with SHBG; e.g., methenolone-SHBG or boldenone-SHBG) complexes that are taken up into Sertoli cells (testicular cells that are involved in spermatogenesis). We have evidence of megalin's influence on secondary sex characteristics & SHBG-T complexes being taken up into Sertoli cells via megalin receptors, and criticially, that have been shown to influence PKA activity by nongenomic mechanisms (e.g., via cell-surface receptors).

The rapidity of onset (after, e.g., front-loading EQ, Primo) in hypogonadal symptoms suggests that, perhaps, there is an interaction between AR & SHBG at the cell surface (without uptake therein), increasing PKA activity via megalin receptor. There is evidence that the intracellular interaction of the AR-SHBG complex with megalin receptor may increase PKA activity and this could influence AR-mediated transcription by altering AR phosphorylation and that of its coactivators.

Nobody has ascertained at what SHBG concentration problems arise (sexual dysfunction & hypogonadal symptoms) - but I suspect that it is extremely low.

Conclusion:
Rather than low SHBG inducing hypogonadal symptoms per se, perhaps it is more likely that the particular effects of different AR-SHBG complexes in and at Sertoli cells (and perhaps, speculatively, via other cell surface receptors, e.g., in the hypothalamo-pituitary axis), differentially influence hypogonadal symptoms.

My view is supported by the frequent observation of the onset of hypogonadal symptoms being a rapid (i.e., nongenomic) effect, e.g., the onset of these symptoms after a Primo or EQ bolus (especially front-loaded) is consistently reported as rapid (too rapid to be mediated exclusively by genomic action; reduction to SHBG, etc.)
Also to add to this, I am also one of those people who has also observed the rapid onset libido decrease from primobolan too. Where the decrease in libido happened before Shbg could have been decreased globally yet in blood( or serum ?)

So I’ve experienced both sides of this coin.

The opposite side being, I’ve also noticed that restoring my Shbg with estradiol oral administration having a positive effect on libido and night time erection frequency. Which is less subjective than just trying to evaluate by libido which could be influenced by many environmental factors too.
 
Also to add to this, I am also one of those people who has also observed the rapid onset libido decrease from primobolan too. Where the decrease in libido happened before Shbg could have been decreased globally yet in blood( or serum ?)

So I’ve experienced both sides of this coin.

The opposite side being, I’ve also noticed that restoring my Shbg with estradiol oral administration having a positive effect on libido and night time erection frequency. Which is less subjective than just trying to evaluate by libido which could be influenced by many environmental factors too.
Also, I think the rapid decrease in libido is also largely related to estradiol decrease which boldenone and Primobolan are known to do. Even before Shbg decreases.

It’s also Possible that the ratio of Shbg-e2 to Shbg:T or Shbg: P etc is what modulates libido.
 
Do you know your E2 on this combo?

My theory is that if primo lowers e2 a lot in a person, then their Shbg is even further lowered, and I’ve heard from many people that their libido sucked when their Shbg was in the single digits.

For Anavar, I don’t know if this impacts E2 as much as primo/masteron, but I have seen bloodwork where Anavar also did lower somebodies E2 from low 40s to 30ish pg/ml and their SHBG was brought down from 16 down to 8nmol/L.

And the combo of low E2, which then lowers SHBG even further than a DHT derivative normally would with low estrogen compared to if someone maintained normal E2. Since E2 contributes to maintaining Shbg. And I’ve heard from many that’s a combo for poor libido, low E2 and SHBG
I do not ever test for E2, since I honestly don't care what my numeric value is, as long as I feel well. I do, however, experience low E symptoms when I use too much primo (achy joints, anhedonia, libido issues, etc.). I do not experience any of this with anavar except the loss of libido after approximately 1 week of daily administration, regardless of dose (I've tried 10 mg ED all the way up to 50 mg ED).

@Type-IIx, your post makes a lot of sense. This would explain (at least partially) the rapidity of libido issues from primo. Loss of libido after the first dose of primo, for me, is essentially instant. When I have time, I'm going to do some more reading on megalin.
 
The opposite side being, I’ve also noticed that restoring my Shbg with estradiol oral administration having a positive effect on libido and night time erection frequency. Which is less subjective than just trying to evaluate by libido which could be influenced by many environmental factors too.
It's pretty damn subjective & influenced by many factors. Also, how do you measure nighttime erection frequency when you're asleep?
 
It's pretty damn subjective & influenced by many factors. Also, how do you measure nighttime erection frequency when you're asleep?
I guess I mean it’s more objective in that I can tell whenever I get up to pee, am I having to pee in the shower because the fucker won’t go down till I finish peeing. Vs only having morning wood when I wake up. Or none at all
 
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