MESO-Rx
Anabolic Steroids
Anabolic Steroids & Liver [GI]
- Thread starter Michael Scally MD
- Start date
Have you read what exactly they "disagree" on, end stage liver disease from cirrhosis and cancer?
I thought we were discussing the use of these agents in NORMAL livers as a prophylactic measure, TO PREVENT DISEASE, rather than as THERAPY for patients whom will die and are destitute if "something isn't attempted".
No the fact is these studies DONT disagree with the statements I've made on this issue.
Finally since "rat livers" repairative mechanism are quite different from humans that comparison just won't fly.
Finally if U would like to lower the very unlikely probability AAS will damage your liver lower the dose to a "moderate" quantity and/or duration of any PO agent to 4-6 WEEKS
Jim
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Casca
Member
Thx, as I only have 1 cycle under my belt, and there r so many liver supps out there that members on many boards can not live without. It seems money spent elsewhere would be more beneficial!
The Green Machine
Casca
Ever wonder why so many BB use "liver protector" supplements yet the number of AAS users who DIED or even developed severe LD (defined as requiring hospital admission) is only a handful?
Some of these supplement manufacturers are supporting, thru advertisement, the very boards, blogs or forums your referring to.
ITS BULLSHIT pure and simple.
Reg
Jim
Some of these supplement manufacturers are supporting, thru advertisement, the very boards, blogs or forums your referring to.
ITS BULLSHIT pure and simple.
Reg
Jim
I use tudca and especially when running orals.
TUDCA = UDCA = no benefit
Morefyah
Banned
Are you saying Tudca doesn't work?
Cause it does!
I am living proof, I've run the most ignorant, irresponsible oral cycles!
I am fine, my piss is always crystal clear on tudca and about three gallons of water a day! Doesn't matter if it was dymethazine for 7 weeks or hdrol for 10 weeks, always crystal clear. The old cycle support by cel and such was garbage but it got you by. The new support supps are much better now! You need to worry when you start getting itchy! Happen to me
On 30 mg of Superdrol, never again!
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Marcus
New Member
Your piss is probably clear because of the water. The doctors said that there have been no studies to date regarding a product that "protects" the liver from damage incurred during the use of AAS. It sucks to hear, I agree. I didn't want to hear it either and still want to think, even though there is no study, doesn't mean that a particular supplement doesn't aid in the process. But I dunno. They both know more than me
Edit: these supplements might help with healing process after AAS are ceased to begin recovery. It seems like there is evidence for that. But they also say that stopping on it's own is help enough
Morefyah
Banned
TUDCA supports bile flow to remove these toxic metabolites from the liver. In this way, TUDCA protects you against cholestasis to ensure cholesterol metabolism. Because TUDCA ensures that you’re breaking down fat, it helps to prevent fatty liver disease. It also protects the liver against cell death. Not only do you get liver protection, but you’ve got a built in cholesterol fighter when you take TUDCA.Your piss is probably clear because of the water. The doctors said that there have been no studies to date regarding a product that "protects" the liver from damage incurred during the use of AAS. It sucks to hear, I agree. I didn't want to hear it either and still want to think, even though there is no study, doesn't mean that a particular supplement doesn't aid in the process. But I dunno. They both know more than me
Edit: these supplements might help with healing process after AAS are ceased to begin recovery. It seems like there is evidence for that. But they also say that stopping on it's own is help enough
Marcus
New Member
That's what I thought too my friend, and honestly... I use UDCA at 500mg ED as a preventative measure for this exact reason, and 1500mg ED (for my weight at 215lbs) for repair. What the doctors are saying (if I understand correct) is that there are no studies that link any supplement, TUDCA/UDCA, NAC, Liv-52, to the ability to support the liver as a preventative measure during the use of AAS. I can't seem to find anything to refute them. That being said, I also have not seen any study where they used any of these supplements, administered AAS, and evaluated results and the effects on the liver. So non-proof doesn't necessarily mean disproof either... Just my opinion though. Unless I'm missing something somewhere. Maybe the docs can chime in if they have some time
Well I like that reply better than trying to push a bunch of liver support supplements on me like I've seen on other boards.
Could I not make the same argument with Vitamin -D ?
Let's say I take 10,000 IU of vitamin D every day while cycling high doses of D-Bol and Var for 8 weeks but in spite of that abuse my liver is fine.
That's proof also Vit-D is an effective liver protector right.
Well of course not, in part because the frequency of AAS associated LD is very low yet also since all but relatively severe forms of LD are asymptomatic, both pre and post-cycle hepatic enzyme studies would have to be performed to establish any degree of causation.
Jim
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Marcus
New Member
Very true doc,
but in regards to TUDCA/UDCA, would it not be a more valid argument to make since it is directly correlated with the increase of bile flow. And on the rare occasion, as you say, that liver problems arise during a cycle, isn't it usually due to Cholestasis, where the flow of bile is blocked/slowed? And isn't Ursodeoxycholic acid prescribed for this condition after the obvious advice of cessation first? Am I incorrect in my thought pattern here?
No because of those patients with established LD such as Alcoholic Cirrhosis, Primary Biliary Cirrhosis, Acute Fatty liver of Pregnancy and Drug Induced Cholestasis, etc although bile salts may improve liver function studies, at least initially, they do NOT effect OUTCOME.
There is only ONE FACTOR that improves outcome, removing the offending agent and in this example that agent is iAAS!
Consequently while I may agree many of these liver protectors are relatively harmless, their benefit in AAS associated LD approximates ZIPPO.
Furthermore even IF they were ""the least bit beneficial" because the incidence of AAS associated LD is so very low, you would have to treat literally ten of thousands of patients to prevent ONE AAS user from developing hepatic disease, IMO
SAVE YOUR PCT MATE, bc cycling is expensive enough as is!
Jim
There is only ONE FACTOR that improves outcome, removing the offending agent and in this example that agent is iAAS!
Consequently while I may agree many of these liver protectors are relatively harmless, their benefit in AAS associated LD approximates ZIPPO.
Furthermore even IF they were ""the least bit beneficial" because the incidence of AAS associated LD is so very low, you would have to treat literally ten of thousands of patients to prevent ONE AAS user from developing hepatic disease, IMO
SAVE YOUR PCT MATE, bc cycling is expensive enough as is!
Jim
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Marcus
New Member
Ahhhhh okk. I'll stop beating this dead horse.
Then a little off topic, is your opinion natural supplements to aid with blood pressure the same? Are things such as Hawthorne Berry, Red Yeast, CoQ10, ALA helpful on cycle?
Then a little off topic, is your opinion natural supplements to aid with blood pressure the same? Are things such as Hawthorne Berry, Red Yeast, CoQ10, ALA helpful on cycle?
From the first post, I didn't not think we were speaking of "healthy livers"."Reparative" and prevention is what I thought we were after here. If rats and mice are not comparative too human livers and I do not understand why they are used in most studies concerning liver disease.
Totally in agreement with your moderate dose and duration statement. I have adhere to that in thirty years of self experimentation.
If you let your fingers do the walking in the info web, there is plenty of studies to read up on all of these subjects. Type: udca and liver regeneration in google. There is tons of studies. The endgame is moderation like Dr. Jim said with your usage of AAS or whatever.
Some of these supplements do help and some are garbage. NAC is considered very good in most studies that I found. Same with Reishi Mushroom. Most other things like Milk Thistle is hit or miss. Like all information you have to try and decipher. Credible sources should be warranted first and foremost, IMHO.
Some of these supplements do help and some are garbage. NAC is considered very good in most studies that I found. Same with Reishi Mushroom. Most other things like Milk Thistle is hit or miss. Like all information you have to try and decipher. Credible sources should be warranted first and foremost, IMHO.
I have been home brewing for 8 years now.
Navarro VJ, Barnhart H, Bonkovsky HL, et al. Liver injury from herbals and dietary supplements in the U.S. Drug-Induced Liver Injury Network. Hepatology. http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/hep.27317/abstract
The Drug-Induced Liver Injury Network (DILIN) studies hepatotoxicity caused by conventional medications as well as herbals and dietary supplements (HDS). To characterize hepatotoxicity and its outcomes from HDS versus medications, patients with hepatotoxicity attributed to medications or HDS were enrolled prospectively between 2004 and 2013. The study took place among eight U.S. referral centers that are part of the DILIN. Consecutive patients with liver injury referred to a DILIN center were eligible.
The final sample comprised 130 (15.5%) of all subjects enrolled (839) who were judged to have experienced liver injury caused by HDS. Hepatotoxicity caused by HDS was evaluated by expert opinion. Demographic and clinical characteristics and outcome assessments, including death and liver transplantation (LT), were ascertained.
Cases were stratified and compared according to the type of agent implicated in liver injury; 45 had injury caused by bodybuilding HDS, 85 by nonbodybuilding HDS, and 709 by medications. Liver injury caused by HDS increased from 7% to 20% (P < 0.001) during the study period.
Bodybuilding HDS caused prolonged jaundice (median, 91 days) in young men, but did not result in any fatalities or LT. The remaining HDS cases presented as hepatocellular injury, predominantly in middle-aged women, and, more frequently, led to death or transplantation, compared to injury from medications (13% vs. 3%; P < 0.05).
Conclusions: The proportion of liver injury cases attributed to HDS in DILIN has increased significantly. Liver injury from nonbodybuilding HDS is more severe than from bodybuilding HDS or medications, as evidenced by differences in unfavorable outcomes (death and transplantation).
The Drug-Induced Liver Injury Network (DILIN) studies hepatotoxicity caused by conventional medications as well as herbals and dietary supplements (HDS). To characterize hepatotoxicity and its outcomes from HDS versus medications, patients with hepatotoxicity attributed to medications or HDS were enrolled prospectively between 2004 and 2013. The study took place among eight U.S. referral centers that are part of the DILIN. Consecutive patients with liver injury referred to a DILIN center were eligible.
The final sample comprised 130 (15.5%) of all subjects enrolled (839) who were judged to have experienced liver injury caused by HDS. Hepatotoxicity caused by HDS was evaluated by expert opinion. Demographic and clinical characteristics and outcome assessments, including death and liver transplantation (LT), were ascertained.
Cases were stratified and compared according to the type of agent implicated in liver injury; 45 had injury caused by bodybuilding HDS, 85 by nonbodybuilding HDS, and 709 by medications. Liver injury caused by HDS increased from 7% to 20% (P < 0.001) during the study period.
Bodybuilding HDS caused prolonged jaundice (median, 91 days) in young men, but did not result in any fatalities or LT. The remaining HDS cases presented as hepatocellular injury, predominantly in middle-aged women, and, more frequently, led to death or transplantation, compared to injury from medications (13% vs. 3%; P < 0.05).
Conclusions: The proportion of liver injury cases attributed to HDS in DILIN has increased significantly. Liver injury from nonbodybuilding HDS is more severe than from bodybuilding HDS or medications, as evidenced by differences in unfavorable outcomes (death and transplantation).
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