[Bloodwork] Watson Test Cyp

[jackmeoff1]

When one lacks scientific based evidence to back up what bullshit comes out if their mouth, conspiracy theory is the default here on meso. That or you use bully tactics. It is how meso governs it's members. You know how many PM's I got " I agree with you and would say something but xxx".

You mean he doesn't agree with our bro science code if conduct? Must money in it for him. Give me a fucking break!

Only, I point out that ugl's are under dosed and contaminated. I formed that conclusion based on Llewellyn's studies not some comment that was made as a "general observation".

So what's my agenda exactly?

 

[heady muscle]

@jackmeoff1

Do all of us a favor. If your committed to your point of view, then back it up with stats, studies, etc.. Please. If not, take your antagonistic attitude and leave. Either play nice with facts and data or move on.

 

[jackmeoff1]

@jackmeoff1

Do all of us a favor. If your committed to your point of view, then back it up with stats, studies, etc.. Please. If not, take your antagonistic attitude and leave. Either play nice with facts and data or move on.

You have it backwards.

Meso created the TT to dose theory. It was never proven in the first place. If it was, just show me where. My premise the entire time has been for YOU to prove with evidence the very theory you speak to as objective.

My entire reasoning for questioning the basis if the theory is rooted in observation- This very thread for example as well as other examples I have brought to the discussions (my own blood work). How do you explain the many blood values from pharma testosterone that conflict with the theory?

 

[Kinikuman]

You have it backwards.

Meso created the TT to dose theory. It was never proven in the first place. If it was, just show me where. My premise the entire time has been for YOU to prove with evidence the very theory you speak to as objective.

My entire reasoning for questioning the basis if the theory is rooted in observation- This very thread for example as well as other examples I have brought to the discussions (my own blood work). How do you explain the many blood values from pharma testosterone that conflict with the theory?

True, verified pharma Test or just very good visual facsimiles? Can't say that I've seen anyone that squirreled away their TRT test (real stuff) for a blast that didn't hit 7x at minimum. ANYTHING you buy on the open market, no matter how well it is labeled should be suspect. Especially if it is supposed to be a pharmacy grade product.

 

[heady muscle]

How do you explain the many blood values from pharma testosterone that conflict with the theory?

Boy you love to argue. Maybe you should speak to a good therapist.

Where are the many blood values you speak of? Put up links and I will read them. Besides those, have you ever tried to find anything that backs up your premise?

No, I don't have it backwards, your twisted ego is in search of something we here at MESO cannot help you with. Do you feel as their is a window frame around you???

 

[jackmeoff1]

Boy you love to argue. Maybe you should speak to a good therapist.

Where are the many blood values you speak of? Put up links and I will read them. Besides those, have you ever tried to find anything that backs up your premise?

No, I don't have it backwards, your twisted ego is in search of something we here at MESO cannot help you with. Do you feel as their is a window frame around you???

I've posted them many times spread across threads. I'm not trying to be a dick but it just gets exhausting. Everything that is posted somebody pulls some bro science out of their ass, first it was AI's and HCG make the rule null and void, now it's that the rule only applies to higher doses.

I know you're a smart dude and you've seen what I've been saying . This thread is an example in itself. What is your thoughts on OP blood work? Less than a 5x correlation on Watson test cyp.

 

[dper726]

I've posted them many times spread across threads. I'm not trying to be a dick but it just gets exhausting. Everything that is posted somebody pulls some bro science out of their ass, first it was AI's and HCG make the rule null and void, now it's that the rule only applies to higher doses.

I know you're a smart dude and you've seen what I've been saying . This thread is an example in itself. What is your thoughts on OP blood work? Less than a 5x correlation on Watson test cyp.

Stop the bullshit already you keep repeating the same shit over and over again and lack to post anything significant. I can quote you on this 5 times in this thread.

 

[jackmeoff1]

The irony. The very thread you are posting in is evidence in the contrary to the "rule". The basis of my argument.

 

[johnnyBALLZ]

The irony. The very thread you are posting in is evidence in the contrary to the "rule". The basis of my argument.

And that's ALL you've been pointing at you fucking schmuck!! 1 posted test doesn't really mean that much compared to everything else...

You suck at this, tell whoever has been paying you in bunk gear that you failed and you're incompetent..

 

[Kinikuman]

I've posted them many times spread across threads. I'm not trying to be a dick but it just gets exhausting. Everything that is posted somebody pulls some bro science out of their ass, first it was AI's and HCG make the rule null and void, now it's that the rule only applies to higher doses.

I know you're a smart dude and you've seen what I've been saying . This thread is an example in itself. What is your thoughts on OP blood work? Less than a 5x correlation on Watson test cyp.

It has always been applicable only to supra-physiological levels. That has been a constant. There was a lot of misinformation going around regarding the applicability to TRT level doses. Perhaps that is where you got the impression that the 10x rule could be used for TRT? If so, you just read bad info from someone behind the information curve.

The OPs blood work, by the way, is right about where it should be, considering he split his dose in half. Logically, doing this will give him more stable blood levels at the sacrifice of higher peaks each week. It is irrelevant anyway, since it is well known that the 10x rule does not apply to TRT level doses. So why point to this result as as evidence to discredit the 10x rule? It doesn't apply. Period.

 

[I_know_nothing]

The 10x rule that Dr Scally posted was intended to give an estimate of peak values,
It was also stated to be as accurate for TRT doses or huge doses, with a linear relationship between dose and serum level. It WAS intended for TRT doses as well.
The thread where Dr Scally states this is now a sticky in the lab forum.

@Kinikuman

 

[I_know_nothing]

And shortly after, member @Burrr pointed out that it is indeed relevant to TRT patients.

What the fuck does any of this have to do with you claiming erroneously that these estimates are relevant ONLY to trt patients.

Are you assuming that because another member who is on 'my team' states something that I agree with it?

@Kinikuman further agreement that it the "rule" is suppose to apply to trt doses. trying to explain yourself out of these 4x bloods on watson with the excuse "doesnt apply to trt doses" has already been shattered

 

[I_know_nothing]

So I bought some Test E from American Kodiak back in January and started my cycle on 10/13/2014. The test from Kodiak is dosed at 250 mg/ml.

NOTE: I am on TRT and normally take 50 mg 2x/week plus 250 iu hCG 2x/week (100mg/wk of test & 500 iu/wk of hCG). For this cycle, I did not use any of my pharm test I get from walgreens (saving that for my next blast ). I also took adex, which I got from alldaychemist.

What I Ran:
Test E: 250 mg every Monday & Thursday (500 mg/wk)
hCG: 250 iu every Sunday & Wednesday (500 iu/wk)
Adex: 0.25 - 0.5 mg EOD

Last pin of Test was Monday 12/15 at 8pm. Blood was drawn Wednesday 12/17 at 8am (roughly 36 hours)

Testosterone, Free+Toal LC/MS = 2715 ng/dL
Estradiol: 87.3 pg/mL

Rest of blood work is attached.

Might want to bump up the dose to 450 twice a week. That gear is just a little better than half strength.

guy is running 250mg twice a week for 500mg/wk total. bloods come back at 5.43x dosage says "that gear is just a little better than half strength", implying that 10x is the correct TT level

@Kinikuman "The OPs blood work, by the way, is right about where it should be, considering he split his dose in half. Logically, doing this will give him more stable blood levels at the sacrifice of higher peaks each week."

so we have contradictions among members between 1. whether 10x rule applies to TRT dosees, and 2. whether 10x rule is affected by multi-week dosing. so which is it?

 

[Kinikuman]

guy is running 250mg twice a week for 500mg/wk total. bloods come back at 5.43x dosage says "that gear is just a little better than half strength", implying that 10x is the correct TT level

@Kinikuman "The OPs blood work, by the way, is right about where it should be, considering he split his dose in half. Logically, doing this will give him more stable blood levels at the sacrifice of higher peaks each week."

so we have contradictions among members between 1. whether 10x rule applies to TRT dosees, and 2. whether 10x rule is affected by multi-week dosing. so which is it?

Exactly how long after last pin are all these bloods being taken? It does make a difference, you know. Your levels at 24-48 and 72 hours will all be significantly lower at TRT level doses than they will at supra-physiological ones.

Peak levels will always be affected by split dosing protocols. Simple science. Not even worth debating.

I was under the impression from a previous thread that the 10x rule was not strictly applicable to TRT level doses, but it is possible that it is if you are just looking at peak levels 24 hours after last pin... ? Some clarity would be nice.

Oh yeah,

@I_know_nothing
@I_know_nothing
@I_know_nothing

You only need to tag me once to get my attention.

 

[jackmeoff1]

It has always been applicable only to supra-physiological levels. That has been a constant. .

Constant where? What supports that? A study? Your observations? That is all I have been asking the whole time and every time I ask that question you either don't answer or insult me.

 

[ironwill1951]

thats because you get what you deserve....

 

[jackmeoff1]

thats because you get what you deserve....

What you don't realize is that it makes YOU look bad. You are touting bro science and when asked to back it up you find a way to bail out. I don't care, that is on you guys. It only serves to prove my point. The"10x rule", is not a rule, never was a rule and probably never will be a rule. It is not even a good guideline. The guy who created it himself called it a "rough estimate" and he used 7-10.

 

[Burrr]

Here's a quote from Dr Scally, If you want to use his 10x estimate you should pin a weeks worth all at once.

____
The longer you wait after the pin, the lower the value. If you are dividing up the dose to twice per week, the likelihood is about 1,000 ng/dL might be the low point ( based on 125mg twice a week). Again, if you are trying to see the UG dosing accuracy, IMO the peak is the best, albeit indirect, gauge. Use the entire dose and do not split.

 

[manafest]

I'm a little behind on this, But who actually uses this rule besides meso? trt clinics? labs? Any other medical practices ?

 

[Kinikuman]

Constant where? What supports that? A study? Your observations? That is all I have been asking the whole time and every time I ask that question you either don't answer or insult me.

You've asked many questions. About a lot of things. I've answered you lots of times and never insulted you once. Maybe I should start?

I try to be civil up to the point that you attack me personally or engage in behavior that is detrimental to the general welfare of my brothers on this board.

What is your purpose in persisting with this?