How do you frequently assess the effect on hair loss of your stack?

[RaddishPork]

Bathroom inspections are the best metric for me. If you have dark hair it will easily show on your bathtub and sink. Gotta consider some variables like your hair length / thickness, physical activity, how often you shower, etc. Once you start noticing it's hard to stop.

 

[sushak]

On oral minoxidil sourcing, it seems the best way is to get topical 5% solution and take a couple of drops a day. It's just active ingredient, propylene glycol and ethanol so g2g. I just got 60ml for 15 euro delivered and 3000mg, i.e a shotload of doses

 

[Ghoul]

On oral minoxidil sourcing, it seems the best way is to get topical 5% solution and take a couple of drops a day. It's just active ingredient, propylene glycol and ethanol so g2g. I just got 60ml for 15 euro delivered and 3000mg, i.e a shotload of doses

My only concern with this would be the lower standards for topical products vs oral pharmaceuticals, for instance ethanol is often spiked with ingredients to discourage consumption, and also the excipients in the pills are at least in part intended to slow absorption, rather than what's probably a a very quick sublingual kind of spike from the liquid.

It is very appealing though, from a cost and availability perspective.

 

[marsupial]

Assume it's happening and take steps to protect your hairline, always, while on gear, or better yet ALWAYS, gear or not.

At the very least low dose oral minoxidil and ketoconozole shampoo twice a week to reduce scalp DHT. You can do these with a 99% chance of no sides. It's all upside.

If you really want to ensure you're protecting it, forget the ketoconozole and find a low dose of Finasteride you can tolerate, but that's not always cost free in terms of side effects, unlike the option above.

You cannot imagine how horrible it is to lose it. It's absolutely brutal when it's beyond the point of no return and you'll curse your previous full haired self for not saving those follicles while you had a chance.

PS: Not shilling, but the only place I'm aware you can get 2% Keto shampoo without a prescription is PCT24x7, the other India pharma sellers won't send it because it's liquid and too cheap to be worth the trouble. 1% over the counter is ineffective.

Eh I know people say “by the time you notice it’s too late”, but you can honestly monitor your hairline and crown closely to see any week to week changes on a cycle. Keep close track of how far apart each hair follicle is on your hairline to get an idea if the entire hairline is moving back or not. For the crown, harder to compare day by day, but should still be able to see subtle crown thinning, especially if you inspect hairline/crown right after your shower while wet. In addition 90% of people will lose hair first at their hairline. Initial crown balders with no hairline change are less common. Initial diffuse thinners with no hairline change are also less common and generally start balding earlier (ie less than 30y).

Lastly, increased shower shedding may be a hormonal fluctuation thing rather than MPB. That said, lots of people have said that their masteron, winstrol, and primo shedding was very significant and did not fully return post cycle. That said, if your hair can survive the initial hormone saturation period (ie first 5w), there probably won’t be any hormonal shed later on…with the exception of if you crash e2 and are prone to shedding or faster MPB from that

 

[marsupial]

I do want to know people’s thoughts on dermarolling when someone already has thick hair with an unmoved hairline but wants to prevent any potential for future hair loss, especially on gear

 

[marsupial]

was genetically blessed with a good hairline, but ill occasionally look at the shower drain to see if there's any hairloss. Thankfully there isn't (knock on wood), and I run mast every cycle

If you're prone just avoid DHTs, or just embrace the bald. I don't really see a good third option?

Ngl I’m curious to see this hairline supposedly unscathed by multiple blasts with mast

 

[AlexDavis43]

Wow thanks for so many replies !
I’ll start the over the sink hair count with dry hair if that sounds good?
I could wash my hair in the sink though and get a hair strainer/catcher instead.

Ok so some notes I made

a) I’d love to look good with a shaved head and then I’d blast the crap out of cycles. But I’ve shaved my head in the past and I look terrible. It’s brutal how bad it makes me look.

I’ve decided to stop all cycles for the foreseeable future until I get a handle on the hair loss solution

The photo below is similar to my hair thinning, mine goes a little further forward but isn’t as bad on the crown.

b)Why can’t you use ketoconozole shampoo every day for better protection?

c) Oral minox sounds way better than topical just because of the sheer ball ache of putting a topical on my scalp every single night (or worse twice a day). Can you buy pharma oral minox?

d) Is it worth trying finasteride before dutasteride? I’ve got 90 Avodart, so 6 months worth at 3 pills a week.
I know Dut has a 6 week half life so you need to start low and slow or feeling awful is going to last a long time.
So if I go straight to Dut, start at one Avodart per week?

e) Would you get DHT bloods before ever going on a 5AR inhibitor? The idea being if you need to stop because of side effects you have a baseline DHT to discuss with your doctor

Thanks again

A few comments:

The bathtub sieve is really simple and a full shower might give a more accurate picture. Those hair counts (5-10) are based on a full shower. Not sure if we'd expect less if you're just washing your hair in the sink.

Keto shampoo dries the shit out of my hair so I only use it 1-2x/wk.

Topical minox comes in a spray foam and takes about 5 seconds to apply.

I'm not using any orals because I'm still in the prevention phase (full head of hair) but I also microneedle once a week for a minute or so.

 

[AlexDavis43]

I do want to know people’s thoughts on dermarolling when someone already has thick hair with an unmoved hairline but wants to prevent any potential for future hair loss, especially on gear

Just one note: the study was on microneedling not dermarolling. It's possible that they do different things: microneedling goes straight down, dermarolling might go in at an angle and tear the scalp. I don't know if that makes a difference, but the study was on microneedling so we know at least that much works.

 

[Ghoul]

Eh I know people say “by the time you notice it’s too late”, but you can honestly monitor your hairline and crown closely to see any week to week changes on a cycle. Keep close track of how far apart each hair follicle is on your hairline to get an idea if the entire hairline is moving back or not. For the crown, harder to compare day by day, but should still be able to see subtle crown thinning, especially if you inspect hairline/crown right after your shower while wet. In addition 90% of people will lose hair first at their hairline. Initial crown balders with no hairline change are less common. Initial diffuse thinners with no hairline change are also less common and generally start balding earlier (ie less than 30y).

Lastly, increased shower shedding may be a hormonal fluctuation thing rather than MPB. That said, lots of people have said that their masteron, winstrol, and primo shedding was very significant and did not fully return post cycle. That said, if your hair can survive the initial hormone saturation period (ie first 5w), there probably won’t be any hormonal shed later on…with the exception of if you crash e2 and are prone to shedding or faster MPB from that

Sudden DHT increases can "shock" the follicle and cause hair to temporarily fall out, but that's not a way to monitor permanent hair loss.

The "bulb" of stem cells that are responsible for hair growth slowly shrinks with DHT exposure, the hair shaft being produced becomes slimmer and slimmer until it disappears altogether, through a process called miniaturization.

You have zero chance of observing that damage on a 3 month cycle.

Until the hair actually falls out for the last time, it's almost impossible to detect how miniaturized your hairs have become with the naked eye.

 

[karambit]

Sudden DHT increases can "shock" the follicle and cause hair to temporarily fall out, but that's not a way to monitor permanent hair loss.

The "bulb" of stem cells that are responsible for hair growth slowly shrinks with DHT exposure, the hair shaft being produced becomes slimmer and slimmer until it disappears altogether, through a process called miniaturization.

You have zero chance of observing that damage on a 3 month cycle.

Until the hair actually falls out for the last time, it's almost impossible to detect how miniaturized your hairs have become with the naked eye.

View attachment 284608

In your experience is there a ratio of damage potential between DHT/DHT derivatives or " structurally related" ?
If you had to use law of averages and venture a guess, would you say it's 5:1, 2:1 or something like 1.5:1 I'm curious as to your guestimation, if you have ever done products such as masteron,Primobolin, proviron, winny blah, blah.. in comparison to monitored regular and high levels of DHT via 5AR conversion from testosterone?

 

[Ghoul]

In your experience is there a ratio of damage potential between DHT/DHT derivatives or " structurally related" ?
If you had to use law of averages and venture a guess, would you say it's 5:1, 2:1 or something like 1.5:1 I'm curious as to your guestimation, if you have ever done products such as masteron,Primobolin, proviron, winny blah, blah.. in comparison to monitored regular and high levels of DHT via 5AR conversion from testosterone?

I couldn't say.

A lot is still not understood about this hair loss process yet, but one theory is that when DHT attaches to the receptors on the follicle, some stem cells change, which are then seen as foreign bodies, and are attacked by your immune system causing the inflammation that ultimately destroys them.

I swear looking back many years I could *feel* this happening, and within a few months would start to see hair loss in the areas I'd experienced pain. Basically it would happen right at the edge of wherever my hairline was, moving back slowly over years.

I assume this intermittent attack on my hairline was during times of DHT naturally peaking.

It got more and more infrequent over the years, likely slowing with my dropping T levels, then stopped and everything stabilized.

Once I went on TRT my hairline pain started up again a few months later, and the progression of hair loss resumed. Increasing. dose and adding compounds didn't make it any faster, the rate was pretty steady once it started again. Maybe there are only so many receptor sites on the follicles and once they're all occupied more DHT didn't make a difference.

FYI, so the role of the compounds in fighting hair loss is:

Finasteride reducing DHT at the source.

Ketaconazole shampoo reducing destructive inflammation on the DHT activated follicles.

Minoxidil opening blood vessels, increasing oxygen and nutrients reaching the follicles making them healthier and more productive, to partially offset the effects of miniaturization. (but does nothing to stop miniaturization).


These are the biggest anti hair loss weapons. Maybe accounting for 90% of what can be done to prevent and slightly reverse it. There's derma rolling. and laser caps, and other things that stimulate follicles to become more vigorous, sometimes bringing some so damaged they're in a coma "back to life" a little. But ultimately when the stem cells are all gone, that's it.

 

[karambit]

Minoxidil opening blood vessels, increasing oxygen and nutrients reaching the follicles making them healthier and more productive, to partially offset the effects of miniaturization. (but does nothing to stop miniaturization).

Wouldn't the propensity of keeping folicles in the anigen phase greatly offset the duration/potential of the miniaturization phenomenon? Albeit wouldn't stop it dead in it's tracks.
Is ketocanazole that effective at reducing inflammatory cytokines at the folicular level and could we greatly assist by applying something stronger~5-10% during sleep ?

 

[karambit]

Or take it to the oral minoxidil level and ingest orally. I am aware that it act's as an anti-androgen with higher circulating systemic levels BUT as we've witnessed before, this would be offset via exogenous AAS. ie) risk/reward benefit FTW once again

 

[Ghoul]

Wouldn't the propensity of keeping folicles in the anigen phase greatly offset the duration/potential of the miniaturization phenomenon? Albeit wouldn't stop it dead in it's tracks.
Is ketocanazole that effective at reducing inflammatory cytokines at the folicular level and could we greatly assist by applying something stronger~5-10% during sleep ?

In laymen's terms, and this is just my theory based on observation plus what is known, If follicle stem cells are productive on a scale of 1-10 based on how much they get in oxygen and nutrients, if they're normally a 6, minoxidil raises that to 8, lower hair production caused by losing cells is offset by higher production. from those remaining. Maybe it makes them more resilient against destruction as well, but it can't be much because they still inevitably die in the presence of DHT exposure. It's buying time.

Since I pin TRT regularly I knew the hairline pain would occur 2 days post injection. It was like clockwork. Using Ketaconozole 2x a week seemed to mute, but never stopped the soreness in those areas. If I skipped it the pain would be full strength again.

When I started the Minoxidil the pain actually intensified for a while. Perhaps with increased blood flow came greater immune system activity, but within a few months there was visible improvement in my hair quality.

Since starting Finasteride there's no pain whatsoever. It's notable by its absence.

Libido and organism intensity seem intact, but load amounts are definitely diminished.

On 1mg libido went to zero, instant ED, (but that's rare fwiw)

 

[marsupial]

Sudden DHT increases can "shock" the follicle and cause hair to temporarily fall out, but that's not a way to monitor permanent hair loss.

The "bulb" of stem cells that are responsible for hair growth slowly shrinks with DHT exposure, the hair shaft being produced becomes slimmer and slimmer until it disappears altogether, through a process called miniaturization.

You have zero chance of observing that damage on a 3 month cycle.

Until the hair actually falls out for the last time, it's almost impossible to detect how miniaturized your hairs have become with the naked eye.

View attachment 284608

Ok but you can still detect hairline changes no? Sure you’ll be unable to detect the majority of the miniaturization process, but you can at least know when to stop supraphysiological doses

Also can you say how people are able to regain their hairlines with meds alone, if complete miniaturization is as you say irreversible

Lastly I think I’d be fine with maybe a little recession in my late 30s/early 40s. I’m in my late 20s right now and have tracked my hairline closely for years after becoming aware of what my friends were going through. Father, maternal grandfather, and multiple maternal uncles never balded at all into 60y but my paternal grandfather did, so I am also curious about the best ways to prevent it entirely especially now that I’m on gear.

Gonna try to get my hands on 2% ketoconazole in near future

 

[marsupial]

Just one note: the study was on microneedling not dermarolling. It's possible that they do different things: microneedling goes straight down, dermarolling might go in at an angle and tear the scalp. I don't know if that makes a difference, but the study was on microneedling so we know at least that much works.

All in all it just seems way more difficult to do that if you already have a full head of thick hair. Seems much easier if you have short hair or a shaved head

 

[marsupial]

Also Ghoul can you perhaps post your hairline? Curious to see if you were able to overcome your genetics with your vast breadth of knowledge

 

[Ghoul]

Ok but you can still detect hairline changes no? Sure you’ll be unable to detect the majority of the miniaturization process, but you can at least know when to stop supraphysiological doses

Also can you say how people are able to regain their hairlines with meds alone, if complete miniaturization is as you say irreversible

Lastly I think I’d be fine with maybe a little recession in my late 30s/early 40s. I’m in my late 20s right now and have tracked my hairline closely for years after becoming aware of what my friends were going through. Father, maternal grandfather, and multiple maternal uncles never balded at all into 60y but my paternal grandfather did, so I am also curious about the best ways to prevent it entirely especially now that I’m on gear.

Gonna try to get my hands on 2% ketoconazole in near future

The bottom line is this. If you're visibly losing, or know you will lose hair, which is the majority of men, there is not much purpose in "monitoring" it.

90%+ of effective hair preserving. methods are in the 3 steps I described. Just do them, always. If you see continued loss, you have to increase DHT blocking. Hopefully you can increase the dose of Fin, or switch to Dutaseride if if things are going really bad, without side effects becoming a problem.

You can prevent it almost entirely in most cases if you take steps soon enough, BEFORE there's a problem. or at least STOP FURTHER DAMAGE.

You can only reverse it to a small degree and that shouldn't be your primary goal.

Unfortunately you can't convince people to take the necessary steps we know for a fact work while they still have a mostly full head of hair to protect.

All the knowledge and tools to preserve hair are right in front of us, but almost everyone waits far to long to take action, then pretends it was inevitable and there was nothing that could've been done which is BS.

As for me, had I found a way to make finasteride work in my 20s, instead of giving up, I'm certain I wouldn't have lost the majority of my hair 15 years later. I'm well into hair transplant territory at this point. But even now, I'm glad I'm not losing even more, I just wish I had taken action much sooner.

 

[marsupial]

The bottom line is this. If you're visibly losing, or know you will lose hair, which is the majority of men, there is not much purpose in "monitoring" it.

You can prevent it almost entirely in most cases if you take steps soon enough, BEFORE there's a problem. or at least STOP FURTHER DAMAGE.

You can only reverse it to a small degree and that shouldn't be your primary goal.

Unfortunately you can't convince people to take the necessary steps we know for a fact work while they still have a mostly full head of hair to protect.

All the knowledge and tools to preserve hair are right in front of us.

But delayed hair loss is still a successful outcome, hence monitoring. I agree we should take steps to prevent, but honestly even with what you mentioned, for most people those prevention methods won’t work or side effects will be significant, so prevention isn’t a free lunch either. Do you have a pic of your hairline so we can see how well you were able to utilize your own knowledge?

And how do you explain the before and after pics from finasteride, minoxidil, etc? Looks like many people had their hair grow back. Even friends of mine who started fin with visibly receded hairlines got a lot of it back

 

[Ghoul]

But delayed hair loss is still a successful outcome, hence monitoring. I agree we should take steps to prevent, but honestly even with what you mentioned, for most people those prevention methods won’t work or side effects will be significant, so prevention isn’t a free lunch either. Do you have a pic of your hairline so we can see how well you were able to utilize your own knowledge?

And how do you explain the before and after pics from finasteride, minoxidil, etc? Looks like many people had their hair grow back. Even friends of mine who started fin with visibly receded hairlines got a lot of it back

No, I'm not posting my hairline, what's that going to prove? Are you not listening? I told you DHT blockers should've been used decades ago, and failing to do so has cost me significant lost ground. All I can do with my "knowledge" is not lose more hair at this late stage.

I don't know what you're arguing about. Take the simple steps to STOP hair loss entirely while you have hair to protect. The overwhelming majority can do it at a dose of Fin that doesn't cause sides.

Is there some reason not to do these things?

Because the only other option is to surrender to the belief it's inevitable and then, later after you go through the trauma of Norwood 4 or worse grade loss, you're trying to hang on to what's already a severely damaged hairline that could've been preserved with early action.