Yes, I could do that, but I do want to see what Octobers numbers look like before I change anything. I've never had my E2 checked and it's on the script for October.
MESO-Rx
Anabolic Steroids
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Injecting testosterone subcutaneously
- Thread starter frankwhardy
- Start date
Yes, I could do that, but I do want to see what Octobers numbers look like before I change anything. I've never had my E2 checked and it's on the script for October.
Your probably right. It was only 185 before TRT.
The level of testosterone declines with age and to recover it hormone placement therapy is used. This therapy is used in form of injectable depots, transdermal patches and gels, oral therapy and more. According to some physicians one bi-weekly injection is good for treatment of Low T levels. Generally Intramuscular injections are suggested after every two or three weeks. So injecting subcutaneously is used for fast release of T.
At least in my experience, I had horrendous results doing cyp subq ( 4 50-75mg injections over 2 weeks). I felt abs horrible. I thought maybe something else was the problem besides my T level, but 100mg of T im made me feel much better.
I wish my results were different b/c I much prefer subq injections.
I wish my results were different b/c I much prefer subq injections.
I have had 3 or 4 injection recently where I wussed out a little and ended up going sub Q in the thigh as I did not push hard enough and the needle backed out.
I have had no negative effects from this. I don't know if it's because I have enough T build up in my system or if sub Q just works for me.
My legs have very low fat and they may be the reason as well.
I have had no negative effects from this. I don't know if it's because I have enough T build up in my system or if sub Q just works for me.
My legs have very low fat and they may be the reason as well.
MarkHolland
Banned
Thank you Frank.
3 of my last shots have been sub Q and I have had no I'll effects. I shoot 140 - 120 MG Cyp per week. No AI. I always inject into my thigh. I have very low fat in my legs and very hard muscles (I'm a runner). I'm not sure if it's going into fat (there is not much) or if it's just going very shallow into the muscle (needle goes in maybe 1/2 cm).
Hi. New guy to the forum. I've been using HCG as my sole TRT therapy since December of 2012.
I had all the symptoms of Low T - lowered libido, poor recovery from brief infrequent workouts, lack of energy and motivation, poor sleep, etc. I had my blood work done (12/18/12) and results were total T 552, LH 6.1, FSH 4.1, and estradiol 23.6.
I then went to my family doctor and had him check all my other hormone levels (coritsol-normal, thyroid-normal, PSA - .046, Free T-10).
After reading Shippens book and lurking around on the forum, I decided to try HCG monotherapy. I started using 200 IU a day subQ. I took a zinc supplement (15 mg zinc/1 mg copper) 2 times a day as well as 200 mg DIM 2 times a day to help keep E-2 levels down.
I had blood drawn 1 month later (1/31/13). The results were total T 634, LH 1.1, FSH 1.9, and Estradiol 21.4. I was happy to see these results as my free T went up 82 points and my E-2 actually went down 2.2 points. The lowered LH and FSH levels were to be exoected since HCG was now sending the signals to my gonads. I could notice an improvement in my frame of mind (confidence and attitude). Also libido was marginaly improved but no morning wood to speak of.
At this point I decided to try adding injectable B-complex and SuperMic to my supplement routine to try to improve energy levels, workout recovery, and sleep. I had my wife's cousin (RN) start injecting 1cc of each 2 x weekly in the glutes and delts with 25Ga 5/8" syringes. I didn't notice any improvements to speak of in my energy levels, workout recovery or sleep. However I did notice a substantial reduction in the size of my waist, especially in the obliques.
On 3/18/13 I was back to have more blood drawn. The results were Total T 586, LH 1.0, FSH 1.1, Estradiol 21.1, and Free T (Direct) 11.5.
To summarize: LH and FSH remain tanked due to the HCG. Total t down 48 points from last draw but up 34 since first initial draw. Free T up 1.5 points Estradiol down another.3 points. I upped my dosage of HCG to 300 IU daily as a result.
Back to the family doctor yesterday. Diagnosis hypogonadism. He wrote me a script for Testosterone cyponate, 200 iu per ml, 10 ml vial, 1 refill. Dosage reccomended .5 cc im every 14 days.
I think the dosage and frequency are a recipe for trouble and am going to dose more frequently. I believe lower doses more frequently keep the levels of T more stable with less spikes over time. I am still up in the air about wether IM or subQ would be better. I believe I will start with .3cc using a 1cc 29GA, 1/2" insulin syringe in my thigh on Thursday (4/4). I also have large quantities of 25 GA in both 5/8" and 1" (3cc) syringes if the 29 GA doesn't work right. However I hope the insulin syringe will work because the increments on the medicine compartment are easier to read for smaller doses. also there should be less waste due to the size and configuration or the all-in-one needle format.
I will do my next injections (same dose and protocol) on Tuesday and Saturday the following week and then Thursday the week after that. These are my workout days, so it will be easy for me to remember injection days. This frequency of workouts is all I can tolerate at present. Even with these infrequent workouts I usually have to take some time off every 8 weeks to prevent over-training. I think I'll back the HCG back down to 200 iu daily again. I plan to continue the SuperMic as it is advertised to purify the liver and the B-complex as well.
Anyway after 1 month of T injections (6 shots) I'll have my blood drawn again and post the results for you guys.
I would appreciate and advice or comments you guys have as I respect your experience and Knoweldge.
I had all the symptoms of Low T - lowered libido, poor recovery from brief infrequent workouts, lack of energy and motivation, poor sleep, etc. I had my blood work done (12/18/12) and results were total T 552, LH 6.1, FSH 4.1, and estradiol 23.6.
I then went to my family doctor and had him check all my other hormone levels (coritsol-normal, thyroid-normal, PSA - .046, Free T-10).
After reading Shippens book and lurking around on the forum, I decided to try HCG monotherapy. I started using 200 IU a day subQ. I took a zinc supplement (15 mg zinc/1 mg copper) 2 times a day as well as 200 mg DIM 2 times a day to help keep E-2 levels down.
I had blood drawn 1 month later (1/31/13). The results were total T 634, LH 1.1, FSH 1.9, and Estradiol 21.4. I was happy to see these results as my free T went up 82 points and my E-2 actually went down 2.2 points. The lowered LH and FSH levels were to be exoected since HCG was now sending the signals to my gonads. I could notice an improvement in my frame of mind (confidence and attitude). Also libido was marginaly improved but no morning wood to speak of.
At this point I decided to try adding injectable B-complex and SuperMic to my supplement routine to try to improve energy levels, workout recovery, and sleep. I had my wife's cousin (RN) start injecting 1cc of each 2 x weekly in the glutes and delts with 25Ga 5/8" syringes. I didn't notice any improvements to speak of in my energy levels, workout recovery or sleep. However I did notice a substantial reduction in the size of my waist, especially in the obliques.
On 3/18/13 I was back to have more blood drawn. The results were Total T 586, LH 1.0, FSH 1.1, Estradiol 21.1, and Free T (Direct) 11.5.
To summarize: LH and FSH remain tanked due to the HCG. Total t down 48 points from last draw but up 34 since first initial draw. Free T up 1.5 points Estradiol down another.3 points. I upped my dosage of HCG to 300 IU daily as a result.
Back to the family doctor yesterday. Diagnosis hypogonadism. He wrote me a script for Testosterone cyponate, 200 iu per ml, 10 ml vial, 1 refill. Dosage reccomended .5 cc im every 14 days.
I think the dosage and frequency are a recipe for trouble and am going to dose more frequently. I believe lower doses more frequently keep the levels of T more stable with less spikes over time. I am still up in the air about wether IM or subQ would be better. I believe I will start with .3cc using a 1cc 29GA, 1/2" insulin syringe in my thigh on Thursday (4/4). I also have large quantities of 25 GA in both 5/8" and 1" (3cc) syringes if the 29 GA doesn't work right. However I hope the insulin syringe will work because the increments on the medicine compartment are easier to read for smaller doses. also there should be less waste due to the size and configuration or the all-in-one needle format.
I will do my next injections (same dose and protocol) on Tuesday and Saturday the following week and then Thursday the week after that. These are my workout days, so it will be easy for me to remember injection days. This frequency of workouts is all I can tolerate at present. Even with these infrequent workouts I usually have to take some time off every 8 weeks to prevent over-training. I think I'll back the HCG back down to 200 iu daily again. I plan to continue the SuperMic as it is advertised to purify the liver and the B-complex as well.
Anyway after 1 month of T injections (6 shots) I'll have my blood drawn again and post the results for you guys.
I would appreciate and advice or comments you guys have as I respect your experience and Knoweldge.
Blazerone
New Member
I think you should try what your doc stated. I, also, believe after about 4 days you may be crashing from the 100mg of test, if so, you should call the doc and ask if a change in frequency may be in order (that's the path I had to take). Ask if you could try twice a week or every 3 days. If you leave your doc out of the loop, you're asking for troubles down the road and of course you would run out of test. I'm currently taking 34mg/eod SQ of test (about 120mg/week).
Also, I almost quit TRT until doc suggested SQ injections, its been a night and day difference, at least for me.
Good luck
Also, I almost quit TRT until doc suggested SQ injections, its been a night and day difference, at least for me.
Good luck
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Thanks for the reply Blazerone. I think I'll revise my schedle to taking my Test 2 x every 8 days (1 day on, 3 off). I injected 1/4cc (50 mg) in my left thigh using a 31 GA, 5/16" insulin syringe yesterday. No pain, irritation, swelling or after effects, even today. I felt like I slept better than usual last night and felt more refreshed this morning. My next shot will be Sunday. I'll use the same gear and switch to my right thigh. I plan on taking 200 iu HCG on each of my 3 days between T shots. Hopefully this will keep me from crashing. If I do crash, or feel my T levels are not where I want them to be, I will increase the frequency (same dose) to only 2 days between T injections. I also take injectable B-complex and MIC injections every other day as part of my regimen. I swithced from IM to subQ for those injections today using the same 31GA, 5/16" syringe. I did 1/2cc of each and had no complications. I hope the injections continue to go well. It would be nice to just use the insulin syringes for everything. Anybody wanna buy a box of 100 25 GA, 1 inch needles? I'm gonna have some blood drawn in a month to see where I'm at. I also have a follow up appointment scheduled with my doctor on 7/5/13. I'll discuss any dose/frequecy changes and my lab results with my doc then. He's very understanding and says I know more about TRT than he does.
My take on this....
You didn't have low T....you weren't hypogonadal....your LH and FSH levels were normal....your testicular response to your LH levels was normal and appropriate. hCG made no clinically relevant increase in T since you didn't have low T to begin with and now your HPG axis is shut down.
IMO hCG was not indicated in the first place and now you're treating a problem caused by treating something that was not a problem.
There may be an exception here idmd. Just a thought. His T was in the "Normal" range, but his symptoms were that of a guy with low T. I had low T initially @ 184 tT. On TRT it immediately jumped above 1000. When I thought my E2 was escalating I backed of the dosage and retested 2 times @ 400 to 600 tT respectively. The only way I could describe my symptoms is I felt "flat". I then increased my dosage once again and feel more alive and have more energy. I believe I respond better to the TRT when my levels are elevated nearer the 1000-1100 score. n=1
He may be feeling low T even tho' he tests in the normal range. 2 cents
There may be an exception here idmd. Just a thought. His T was in the "Normal" range, but his symptoms were that of a guy with low T. I had low T initially @ 184 tT. On TRT it immediately jumped above 1000. When I thought my E2 was escalating I backed of the dosage and retested 2 times @ 400 to 600 tT respectively. The only way I could describe my symptoms is I felt "flat". I then increased my dosage once again and feel more alive and have more energy. I believe I respond better to the TRT when my levels are elevated nearer the 1000-1100 score. n=1
He may be feeling low T even tho' he tests in the normal range. 2 cents
He went from a baseline of 552 to an hCG-induced 634 and THAT ameliorated ALL of his low T symptoms? I think it's safe to say (at least after the fact) his "low T symptoms" had little to do with his very normal and mid-range test level.
I believe that accounts for many of TRT failures on here.....low T symptoms overlap with just about every other chronic disease in men and when it doesn't help TRT was a failure. What should a doctor say to a guy with "low T symptoms" when he comes in with a tT of 600 or 700 or 800?
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I don't know--"I think you're diabetic"
Que?
idmd,
If you read my initial post I never said HCG solo therapy relieved all of my symptoms, quite the opposite. I said it only resolved a few. My initial total T was only 552. In the normal range, but at the low end, and normal for who? Some people have different "normal" values than others. If my normal is 1000, than 552 indicates I'm running at half my normal levels. Besides that my Free T was only 10. I spoke with TRT clinics who said they aim to get their patients in the 19-25 range. They went on to say that some patients needed to have total Testosterone values over 900 in order to get their free testosterone ratings over 19. From what I've read most TRT experts go more on symptoms than where you are at in the "normal" Testosterone charts. I had many other tests taken to eliminate as many other symptoms as I could. Believe me I did not make the decision to start TRT recklessly. I started with the least invasive approach that I could (HCG monotherapy). It floors me that you are so quick to disagree with my doctor's diagnosis in favor of your own. I appreciate your concern, but now that I've embarked on this mode of treatment, your comments only serve to cast doubt and undue strees on me in the midst of my therapy.
If you read my initial post I never said HCG solo therapy relieved all of my symptoms, quite the opposite. I said it only resolved a few. My initial total T was only 552. In the normal range, but at the low end, and normal for who? Some people have different "normal" values than others. If my normal is 1000, than 552 indicates I'm running at half my normal levels. Besides that my Free T was only 10. I spoke with TRT clinics who said they aim to get their patients in the 19-25 range. They went on to say that some patients needed to have total Testosterone values over 900 in order to get their free testosterone ratings over 19. From what I've read most TRT experts go more on symptoms than where you are at in the "normal" Testosterone charts. I had many other tests taken to eliminate as many other symptoms as I could. Believe me I did not make the decision to start TRT recklessly. I started with the least invasive approach that I could (HCG monotherapy). It floors me that you are so quick to disagree with my doctor's diagnosis in favor of your own. I appreciate your concern, but now that I've embarked on this mode of treatment, your comments only serve to cast doubt and undue strees on me in the midst of my therapy.
You said"
I said "I dont know"--(the doctor could tell him) "I think you're diabetic"
What's to know?
I believe that makes as much sense as telling him "you [a]ren't hypogonadal"
The number is just a number, is just a number, is what it is. You have come to a conclusion that I disagree with...from my own experience am allowing for another possibility. Non of this is conclusive. Dont we wish it was as easy as "take this pill and call me in the morning"
No one on this board including the very good Dr's have all the answers. There is quite a bit of speculation here because of the bullseye we all are chasing. It doesn't mean that speculation is wrong, when the real answers are inconclusive. You were pretty definite in your post/statement. As a group, I don't believe the answers are that definitive. It is possible, IMO, that he could be hypogonadal even with a tT @ 600
I said "I dont know"--(the doctor could tell him) "I think you're diabetic"
What's to know?
I believe that makes as much sense as telling him "you [a]ren't hypogonadal"
The number is just a number, is just a number, is what it is. You have come to a conclusion that I disagree with...from my own experience am allowing for another possibility. Non of this is conclusive. Dont we wish it was as easy as "take this pill and call me in the morning"
No one on this board including the very good Dr's have all the answers. There is quite a bit of speculation here because of the bullseye we all are chasing. It doesn't mean that speculation is wrong, when the real answers are inconclusive. You were pretty definite in your post/statement. As a group, I don't believe the answers are that definitive. It is possible, IMO, that he could be hypogonadal even with a tT @ 600
Well I stand corrected then....good luck
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