Secret Sources, the SCOC and the Steroid Underground

[Abuckeye]

DMT31 that's your opinion and I respect your opinion. I'm glad you are able to state it. If you think that things are working perfect for you just the way they are then that's great for you. But a lot of others seem to disagree.


There are others that have the same stance as OGH but they don't want to come to this thread and debate because they think that they'll be lit up like he received. I totally agree that we need to fight and quarrel about this but don't push others away from the debate by simply stating that they're stupid for having a different opinion. I'm not singling anyone out but you know there are voices not being heard because of this bullshit.

 

[weighted chinup]

Having sources participate in discussion without having them actively use the member base to procure sales is certainly doable, so I'm not sure why guys find this notion laughable or approach it facetiously.

I will bet you guys any sum of money that established sources will want to have their say when their products are being discussed, torn apart, whatever. We've seen this before. Naps does this. I've seen other sources do this as well. They participate and while often times their point of view is misguided based on their desire to make more sales, its still important to have that extra voice in the conversation.

It can be done without actively trying to solicit sales.

You know what kind of sources won't bother coming here in such an environment? Amateur sources. They don't have their products in the market that guys are using to discuss, because their only goal with this board is that they want/need you guys to help them make their million dollars so they can cash the fuck out.

 

[dmt31]

Having sources participate in discussion without having them actively use the member base to procure sales is certainly doable, so I'm not sure why guys find this notion laughable or approach it facetiously.

I will bet you guys any sum of money that established sources will want to have their say when their products are being discussed, torn apart, whatever. We've seen this before. Naps does this. I've seen other sources do this as well. They participate and while often times their point of view is misguided based on their desire to make more sales, its still important to have that extra voice in the conversation.

It can be done without actively trying to solicit sales.

You know what kind of sources won't bother coming here in such an environment? Amateur sources. They don't have their products in the market that guys are using to discuss, because their only goal with this board is that they want/need you guys to help them make their million dollars so they can cash the fuck out.

But it seems that the only sources who actively pop up here over and over again are Amateur sources. They all participate in all the conversations, and it becomes a shitshow in every thread. I don't think you're wrong, but you have to look at what's going on and not what you'd like to have going on.

 

[dmt31]

DMT31 that's your opinion and I respect your opinion. I'm glad you are able to state it. If you think that things are working perfect for you just the way they are then that's great for you. But a lot of others seem to disagree.


There are others that have the same stance as OGH but they don't want to come to this thread and debate because they think that they'll be lit up like he received. I totally agree that we need to fight and quarrel about this but don't push others away from the debate by simply stating that they're stupid for having a different opinion. I'm not singling anyone out but you know there are voices not being heard because of this bullshit.

I didn't say that... I didn't say things are working perfect... That's my point man... Shit doesn't have to be 'perfect' or 'blow it up it's broken'. We can find a middle ground somewhere here.

 

[Millard]

Absolutely it can be improved upon. But, as I'm sure you're seeing, people are going through various extreme answers that are not feasible, but also silly, for lack of a better term.

At this point anybody who can comprehend basic english understands what your goals were, and more importantly what your vision for this whole forum was. We all appreciate what you have done here and more importantly respect it. That said, it's just not what the reality is. That has to be accepted on some level.

The sense I'm getting from a lot of the people posting here is that the only answer is to go to the opposite extreme. Not because they necessarily think it's the best path, but it's what they think YOU, Millard Baker, want. To me that's just kind of ridiculous. This forum, and all forums, exist because of user generated content. The vision of the creator should be taken into account, of course, but if the content that is most popular and generates the most interest from the users is a certain type, that has to be respected. At least in my opinion.

Do I think it's a good idea to have an open source forum that any idiot with a couple of beakers and a hot plate can peddle their shit on? Of course not. Do I think that there is a better way of handling this problem of sources? Yes. But, I don't know what the best approach is. I have my own ideas, but my ideas aren't as important as the ideas of the group as a whole. Just like we can't have every source who ever wanted to sell some AAS posting here and ruining people's cycles, and more importantly their health, we can't have just a couple of rogue members take it upon themselves to decide what the other users here want to see and participate in.

So to come full circle, I do think there is a way to improve upon this, but it really doesn't seem like we have even started that dialogue in a productive way yet. It seems like the people who are being more reasonable are being drowned out by the extremists and we haven't made much progress in terms of a solution yet. There are ideas, but no real plan of action. Ideas are great, but they're worthless without a direction and a way to implement them.

The forum is member-driven. And reality is whatever members want and work towards.

I've done my best to articulate my thoughts and ideas and specific plans of action. I will argue their merits. It doesn't mean my ideas are the best. It doesn't mean that anyone will agree with them.

I encourage everyone to do the same.

It's premature to expect any solution within such a short period of time.

 

[MoriorInvictus]

I personally feel we should explore the "Member Code of Conduct" and what it should include/exclude.

But to think that a source is going to come here just to discuss his products without talking about pricing, available products, shipping times, etc. That's just not going to happen you have to be realistic and know that these people have agendas. They have bills to pay just like anyone else and selling is their business.

 

[Millard]

Shit doesn't have to be 'perfect' or 'blow it up it's broken'. We can find a middle ground somewhere here.

Exactly.

 

[Fckit]

I fail to believe that any source will simply participate in discussions without peddling their gear (at least privately). They have one agenda. Wouldn't we be worse off allowing them to 'contribute' while secretly selling their shit? At least we can save people from getting jacked if they have their own thread and we know they are sourcing

 

[DirtyRandy]

Members have successfully stopped many sources from sourcing with no intervention from big brother. Eliminate? No. Tilt the balance? Yes.

I'm surprised so many people were fans of big brother that believe rules and oversight are the only ways to modify behavior.

Yes some sources have left, others are still fucking people over as I type. I personally feel that either you allow all or none. I mean we are talking about spamming dick pics to push them away from sourcing yet we still want to keep them here. Just my 2 cents. Also I appreciate that this thread is becoming less about bashing and more on respecting peoples opinions.

 

[Oregongearhead]

So we still want sources here for informational purposes and expect them to not actually source here?

No , the labs are going to be our new penpals .We can quiz them , and talk with them and ask them questions about lablife and life in general. But no exchanging of addresses or money talk and definitely dont take freebies . Thats really frowned upon in Steroidlandia.

 

[Abuckeye]

Just because someone doesn't want change, doesn't mean they don't see the 'bigger picture' and that there is anything wrong with going down 'the same path'.... quite frankly this path has helped flush out a lot of bullshit sources who otherwise would still be actively selling at a high volume without a single fuck to give about how bad the gear they were selling is. If that isn't change for the positive, then I have no idea what is.

Alright maybe you were talking hypothetically but it sounded like you liked the path that you were on and you didn't want change. I guess I took it the wrong way.

 

[Millard]

But to think that a source is going to come here just to discuss his products without talking about pricing, available products, shipping times, etc. That's just not going to happen you have to be realistic and know that these people have agendas. They have bills to pay just like anyone else and selling is their business.

If the forum community really wanted it, it would happen.

The million dollar question is does the community really want it.

And even if they do want it, do they feel powerless to make it happen? I don't think they should.

Some think it could only be accomplished with more rules and a lot of moderation. I they are underestimating the power of community.

 

[dmt31]

The forum is member-driven. And reality is whatever members want and work towards.

I've done my best to articulate my thoughts and ideas and specific plans of action. I will argue their merits. It doesn't mean my ideas are the best. It doesn't mean that anyone will agree with them.

I encourage everyone to do the same.

It's premature to expect any solution within such a short period of time.

Absolutely, sorry if I gave off the impression that I took anything different away from what you've written on this topic so far.

yes I agree it's premature, but I'd like us to start actually going down the road to having a proper dialogue. It seems like it's still a pissing contest about who has the better idea and nothing is really getting accomplished. I am confident this will change in time though.

 

[weighted chinup]

I'm surprised that a lot of you guys don't think we can manage a change in culture to allow sources to participate in conversation without trying to peddle gear.

I've seen this done before. This only applies to established sources though because amateur sources do not have any products on the market that guys are using to discuss, their only interest is using wkm's to help get their business up and running.

Naps does it all the time. Remember how he keeps posting about the rigorous testing they are conducting over there? Even though user feedback wouldn't reflect strong QA....

What about Karl dogmatically defending his shitty line of gear whose products gave members gyno?

What about Karius' daily 10am irrelevant post that ignored everything that was discussed before his previous appearance after the HPLC came back showing his products were bunk?

What about the UK steroid guy who came here looking for help trying to solve an issue he had with a shady individual?

Sources will want to have their voice heard when their gear / behavior / service is being discussed, I guarantee you this. Amateur sources have nothing to discuss.

 

[Flounder]

I'm still trying to figure out why pi22 said sources would be allowed to post their email addy if they are not allowed to source. I picture a guy on the corner saying "I'm not sourcing here on Meso, but here's my email addy just in case...wink wink".

 

[johnnyBALLZ]

I'm surprised that a lot of you guys don't think we can manage a change in culture to allow sources to participate in conversation without trying to peddle gear.

I've seen this done before. This only applies to established sources though because amateur sources do not have any products on the market that guys are using to discuss, their only interest is using wkm's to help get their business up and running.

Naps does it all the time. Remember how he keeps posting about the rigorous testing they are conducting over there? Even though user feedback wouldn't reflect strong QA....

What about Karl dogmatically defending his shitty line of gear whose products gave members gyno?

What about Karius' daily 10am irrelevant post that ignored everything that was discussed before his previous appearance after the HPLC came back showing his products were bunk?

What about the UK steroid guy who came here looking for help trying to solve an issue he had with a shady individual?

Sources will want to have their voice heard when their gear / behavior / service is being discussed, I guarantee you this. Amateur sources have nothing to discuss.

Ah, you beat me to it!!

If members buy from established sources on source boards and come back here with labmax, bloods, or any other kind of testing the sources will certainly come here to defend themselves.. Well, if they give a shit about their reputation that is..

 

[DirtyRandy]

I'm still trying to figure out why pi22 said sources would be allowed to post their email addy if they are not allowed to source. I picture a guy on the corner saying "I'm not sourcing here on Meso, but here's my email addy just in case...wink wink".

Ya that definitely defeats the purpose. Even if we let sources stay to talk about their product there will still be sourcing. I can just pm him for a price list. They aren't gonna say no to money.

 

[Fckit]

I'm surprised that a lot of you guys don't think we can manage a change in culture to allow sources to participate in conversation without trying to peddle gear.

I've seen this done before. This only applies to established sources though because amateur sources do not have any products on the market that guys are using to discuss, their only interest is using wkm's to help get their business up and running.

Naps does it all the time. Remember how he keeps posting about the rigorous testing they are conducting over there? Even though user feedback wouldn't reflect strong QA....

What about Karl dogmatically defending his shitty line of gear whose products gave members gyno?

What about Karius' daily 10am irrelevant post that ignored everything that was discussed before his previous appearance after the HPLC came back showing his products were bunk?

What about the UK steroid guy who came here looking for help trying to solve an issue he had with a shady individual?

Sources will want to have their voice heard when their gear / behavior / service is being discussed, I guarantee you this. Amateur sources have nothing to discuss.

Maybe sources overall have made me pessimistic, or I'm just not comprehending your point (very possible scenario).

You're saying that sources will come here (and not focus on churning business on other boards) to partake in group discussions that lead to zero income? I agree, they will appear to defend their product once something bad is inevitably mentioned. If that is what you mean, then I'm with you 100%.
However, I believe a source will always find a way to push gear. They aren't in it for the 'better of the community.' I fully believe they will simply go to pm and feed on naive noobs and other members who will maybe mention something good for some product. If I'm right and these things are done privately rather than publicly, it will do nothing but further erode the community.

Secondly, we don't have ANY censorship. So, if this would "only work for established" sources, it's already flawed. We can't stop amateur sources from coming here.

Culture change? I'm all about it. But we're dealing with drug dealers who are well adapted to breaking the rules. If you believe they aren't going to find a way to push product regardless of our rules, we'll just have to agree to disagree.

Respect

 

[Oregongearhead]

Ya that definitely defeats the purpose. Even if we let sources stay to talk about their product there will still be sourcing. I can just pm him for a price list. They aren't gonna say no to money.

Thats why this is a bad idea , now we will be hiding the fact that a source here on Meso did us wrong , in fear of retribution from the tribe for using them. We will be hiding our sources , afraid to talk about them . Free talk would die . Bad labs would be protected .

 

[Kinikuman]

Does anyone know of any board out there dedicated to AAS / PED where sources are not peddling their goods in one way or another, either directly or indirectly?

I fear we are descending into a hunt for a purple squirrel with this circular mode of argument taking place. Real cultural change takes real time and I'm not overly optimistic about the patience level of many members of this board based on what is being displayed.

Sources are the enemy that we depend upon. That they hold the overwhelming balance of power in this game is of no surprise considering the ease and alarming regularity with which we fall into this internecine warfare.