“Tren not that good for bulking”

[hudson98]

didn't read all

1. I would never listen to anyone named Derek, who names their kid that>?
2. tren is fine for bulking, like another said, nothing impressive about puffing up on water and deca and getting fat
3. tren is def overhyped on the boards, but so are the "sides". crazy some say they can't tolerate it. never had a side

 

[MysqlMan]

This is a great thread. Guys who have used nandrolone, could similar gains be made with double the dose of something mild like primo? For example: 700mg of primo as potent as 350 NPP?
I’m too old for 19-nors.

Wow! You look pretty jacked for an old guy.
My skin hasn't looked like that in 30 years.
LOL
How old are you???

 

[MysqlMan]

didn't read all

1. I would never listen to anyone named Derek, who names their kid that>?
2. tren is fine for bulking, like another said, nothing impressive about puffing up on water and deca and getting fat
3. tren is def overhyped on the boards, but so are the "sides". crazy some say they can't tolerate it. never had a side

You don't get heartburn from tren?
I never got night sweats or "tren cough," but I def get insomnia, and MAN do I get heartburn.
Damn near drown in stomach acid.

 

[MysqlMan]

If an anabolic agent is blunting your appetite, your dose is toxic. Everything, from AAS, to rhGH, of course the Ghrelin mimetics (GHS-R agonists), to clen, stimulate appetite.

That's an interesting idea.
You think it applies to test?
Or is it a combines total?

 

[MysqlMan]

It’s a nutrient partitioning drug that works regardless of whether you have built up peak blood levels. Tren ace specifically does this

I've never noticed that Tren kicks in quickly enough that pinning it pre-meal would have any positive effect. I don't feel tgrfen ac e for at least 2-3 days after pinning.
???

 

[MysqlMan]

Somewhat like injectable metformin but cooler and angrier

How's that?

 

[Type-IIx]

That's an interesting idea.
You think it applies to test?
Or is it a combines total?

Appetite stimulation applies generally to the anabolic agents, AAS, clenbuterol (after the initial sympathomimetic effects dissipate [rapidly]), GH secretagogues especially Ghrelin mimetics (GHS-R agonists). I believe growth factors (e.g., rhGH, IGF-I analogues) indirectly stimulate appetite by effects on blood glucose.

 

[MysqlMan]

Appetite stimulation applies generally to the anabolic agents, AAS, clenbuterol (after the initial sympathomimetic effects dissipate [rapidly]), GH secretagogues especially Ghrelin mimetics (GHS-R agonists). I believe growth factors (e.g., rhGH, IGF-I analogues) indirectly stimulate appetite by effects on blood glucose.

I guess I didn't express that very well.
You theorized that if your appetite is suppressed, that means your AAS dose is toxic.

Did you mean that one particular AAS is dosed too high (toxic)?
Or that the combined total is too high?

 

[Type-IIx]

I guess I didn't express that very well.
You theorized that if your appetite is suppressed, that means your AAS dose is toxic.

Did you mean that one particular AAS is dosed too high (toxic)?
Or that the combined total is too high?

Oh, total combined dose considering AR potency (from Houtman's bioluminescence data) and Bond & Llewellyn's oxidative stress hypothesis (toxicity is a function of resistance to metabolism/breakdown * AR potency). Factor in perhaps a 5X arbitrary multiplier for 17AAs vs. 1X for parental (injectable) AAS for resistance to metabolism.

To illustrate, Tren's molar (per-mg) AR potency is 4.4X as potent as Test's (i.e., 350 mg of Tren is ~as toxic as 1.54 g testosterone weekly, not accounting for relative molecular weight/ester weights), Methyltren (R1881; metribolone) is ~25X as toxic as Test per mg (such that 20 mg daily of methyltrienolone is ~as toxic as 3.5 g weekly testosterone).

Androgen, even endogenous T at physiologic concentrations, is toxic. It must be metabolised to less toxic metabolites and excreted. It's probably a significant contributor to the sex-related difference in mortality (women live longer than men).

This is not intended as a rote formula to be applied, just as a model that permits some generalisable comparisons and provides the basis for a rough continuum.

 

[MysqlMan]

Let's try again:

You said: "If an anabolic agent is blunting your appetite, your dose is toxic."

1) Are you claiming that a loss of appetite is caused by too many steroids in total (for that cycle)?
2) Or are you claiming the loss of appetite is caused by too many of one steroid in that cycle?

 

[Type-IIx]

Let's try again:

You said: "If an anabolic agent is blunting your appetite, your dose is toxic."

1) Are you claiming that a loss of appetite is caused by too many steroids in total (for that cycle)?
2) Or are you claiming the loss of appetite is caused by too many of one steroid in that cycle?

It's caused by... neither.

It's caused by [link]

 

[MysqlMan]

It's caused by... neither.

It's caused by [link]

You said: "If an anabolic agent is blunting your appetite, your dose is toxic."

 

[Pineapples4Puss]

Let's try again:

You said: "If an anabolic agent is blunting your appetite, your dose is toxic."

1) Are you claiming that a loss of appetite is caused by too many steroids in total (for that cycle)?
2) Or are you claiming the loss of appetite is caused by too many of one steroid in that cycle?

Let’s see if I can break it down in lament terms. I understand it in my head but it’s also not something in comfortable with.

“Oh, total combined dose considering AR potency …. oxidative stress hypothesis (toxicity is a function of resistance to metabolism/breakdown * AR potency).”

It isn’t total dose or too many of one or multiple steroids. It’s a multi factor equation.

It’s the actual break down and excretion of the metabolites from androgens that causes stress on the body. Probably because our bodies must package and store them in a certain way. More than likely creates reactive oxygen species and other non favorable environmental factors inside of ourselves.

Key words here are considering the AR potency in total dosage. You can have 9 steroids or 1 steroid causing this. As long as you are above the threshold of toxicity which I am assuming differs from person to person. Which is why we see differing reactions from differing people on the same exact cycle.

 

[Type-IIx]

Let’s see if I can break it down in lament terms. I understand it in my head but it’s also not something in comfortable with.

“Oh, total combined dose considering AR potency …. oxidative stress hypothesis (toxicity is a function of resistance to metabolism/breakdown * AR potency).”

It isn’t total dose or too many of one or multiple steroids. It’s a multi factor equation.

It’s the actual break down and excretion of the metabolites from androgens that causes stress on the body. Probably because our bodies must package and store them in a certain way. More than likely creates reactive oxygen species and other non favorable environmental factors inside of ourselves.

Key words here are considering the AR potency in total dosage. You can have 9 steroids or 1 steroid causing this. As long as you are above the threshold of toxicity which I am assuming differs from person to person. Which is why we see differing reactions from differing people on the same exact cycle.

This is basically correct.

I'll just revise one component of your explanation: it's not the process of breakdown and excretion of androgen metabolites that cause stress, but rather that because androgens/AAS are highly polar and toxic they must be metabolised and excreted by the liver (even injectable) to less polar and toxic metabolites, otherwise they'd expose the liver to very high concentrations of considerable toxicity.

AR activation increases mitochondrial β-oxidation, increasing reactive oxygen species. The ROS production in hepatocytes (liver cells) induces mitochondrial swelling and subsequent apoptosis (cell death).

17AAs expose the liver to toxic concentrations of AAS, particularly resistant to hepatic metabolism, on a long time frame. These are thus more toxic relatively than injectables (hence the arbitrary 5X multiplier); but, still, AR activation increases ROS per se.

 

[Wunderpus]

In some of MPMD’s videos, he mentions that tren is not “that useful” in a bulking context compared to other steroids. He argues tren is moreso useful as an anti-catabolism agent when cutting weight, as it is not a great muscle builder on its own per se, but rather that it prevents catabolism better than it builds muscle, leading to a “net anabolic effect” and its reputation as such a strong anabolic.

What are your thoughts on this? Tren has always been the “gold standard” steroid to me at least in terms of muscle building, so this confuses me. What are some alternatives that are more anabolic? Nandrolone maybe?

I agree with his opinion... Tren may have great anabolic effects on paper, much like Winstrol, Halo, etc. However, in practice, it performs poorly... The GI duress alone would deter me. Not to mention tren's negative impact on sleep (recovery), as well.

I would avoid using it for gaining, rather, use it for muscle retention.

 

[Sampei]

I agree with his opinion... Tren may have great anabolic effects on paper, much like Winstrol, Halo, etc. However, in practice, it performs poorly... The GI duress alone would deter me. Not to mention tren's negative impact on sleep (recovery), as well.

I would avoid using it for gaining, rather, use it for muscle retention.

If you can eat on TREN and it's a big IF.... I have experienced great grow on it with a lot less fat compared to nandrolone for example. The insuling sensitivity effect of tren really helps shuttling all the nutrients needed towards your muscles, especially on a caloric surplus.

Can you get fat on TREN? Surely. Can you have a shit bulking time compared to using nandrolone? Most likely.

The problem is eating, IF you have no heartburn acid reflux and appetite suppression, tren to me has being awesome.

 

[MysqlMan]

*IF*

 

[Type-IIx]

If you can eat on TREN and it's a big IF.... I have experienced great grow on it with a lot less fat compared to nandrolone for example. The insuling sensitivity effect of tren really helps shuttling all the nutrients needed towards your muscles, especially on a caloric surplus.

Can you get fat on TREN? Surely. Can you have a shit bulking time compared to using nandrolone? Most likely.

The problem is eating, IF you have no heartburn acid reflux and appetite suppression, tren to me has being awesome.

That's the other factor, besides toxicity, androgens are (potency-dependently) ulcerogenic and enhance the susceptibility of gastric mucosa to the peptic action of gastric juice. The simple solution is famotidine (Pepcid).

 

[Sampei]

That's the other factor, besides toxicity, androgens are (potency-dependently) ulcerogenic and enhance the susceptibility of gastric mucosa to the peptic action of gastric juice. The simple solution is famotidine (Pepcid).

I don't like using those meds unless I have some kind of condition that require them to be used but it must not be AAS related..if I have to use famotidine for 3 months straight because I can't use tren otherwise... Maybe is better if I don't use tren at all.

Luckily I can tolerate tren quite well so I don't need any antiacid.

Doesn't long term famotidine create B12 deficiency?

 

[MysqlMan]

I don't like using those meds unless I have some kind of condition that require them to be used but it must not be AAS related..if I have to use famotidine for 3 months straight because I can't use tren otherwise... Maybe is better if I don't use tren at all.

Luckily I can tolerate tren quite well so I don't need any antiacid.

Doesn't long term famotidine create B12 deficiency?

After 40 years of cycling, I decided to question conventional wisdom and try Tren for bulking AND tren with Deca.

There's a reason conventional wisdom is so damned... well, conventional.

Growing like a mutha' fucka' but after 4 weeks, I don't think I'll do it again.