Sending AAS samples to independent, accredited laboratory in Europe

[Millard]

I guess what i am mainly questioning is the obtaining of the product that gets tested. It seems pretty damn fishy to test more than a handful of products and for all of them to come up smelling like roses. At some point it becomes more than just strange and starts to stink. Are the people rounding up product known by the sources? I don't necessarily mean best buddies type of thing, but do they have a working relationship, are they pro bbers, something?

I don't know, i'm just searching for a reason for what i think is out of the range of possibility. When do you start calling bullshit is what i am asking plainly.

I hate to say this, but if you get a 100% testing rate i think you need to question procedures somewhere along the line. I would go further and say that not only would it not be helping in harm reduction, but in my mind it would actually be hurting people. I hate to sound like someone doing nothing but looking for fault, but we know it is out there and that it is far from an irregularity.

I feel safe in knowing i am not a witch hunter here. I have experienced bunk gear more than once, so i am looking for reasons as to why we wouldn't see this in testing. Do we just get screwed by overseas sources? Do they say screw the U.S. ? Is everyone trying to clean up knowing this testing is going on...sounds a little far-fetched. Is the procurement flawed? Is Millard a good con man and the rest of us are just naive? At this point i'm throwing everything out there and leaning towards what sounds the most plausible. If i had to guess i would think the procurement to be the most reasonable guess.

Maybe i'm just too cynical, but i think GM would never have gotten into trouble if they produced product as reliable as what we have seen so far. At some point it is going to call the testing itself into question and people are going to start ignoring it like they do with assays claiming 99% purity from powder sources.

It will be a shame if people end up calling bullshit on the truth. Some people wlll refuse to believe the truth if it doesn't confirm their preconceived beliefs and expectations. If they have such confidence in these beliefs, then there is no need for an independent and objective lab testing program. The current situation is adequate for them. They don't really want the truth.

It will be a shame if people are only willing to donate and support the program if they like the results. They should donate and support the program because they like the truth regardless of what the results may or may not be.

AnabolicLab has no agenda here other seeking the truth - quite simply to find out exactly what is in the bottle. It's not out to prove that the underground AAS market is terrible. It's not out to prove that all UGLs suck. It's not out to prove that any particular UGL is good or bad. It's not out to convince anyone to never buy from a particular source again. It has none of these biases.

I think people should ask themselves what they really want - what is their agenda? Is it the truth? Or is it to support only those efforts that keep other people from using a source that may have screwed them over in the past? Unfortunately, AnabolicLab's isn't on a quest to punish those sources that have history of customer service/product complaints. It is ONLY to determine what is in the bottle today. If it accomplishes any of these other things people want it to do, then it is only incidental.

The thing about this unbiased and objective approach that I have is that I have no control over the results. I will never manufacture or manipulate results for marketing purposes in a way that I think will create the most community support and raise the most donations for the cause. Just like I will never pander to sources/manufacturers with promises of favorable results to gain more funding, I will never promise to deliver any specific results for the community in order to gain more donations. All you are going to get from me is the truth and nothing more. If you want something else, I can't help you.

You can propose as many hypotheses as you like to explain why the results from the first batch are overwhelmingly positive. But one thing I can promise you is that it has nothing to do with the collection procedures. The anonymity and secrecy of sample collection will likely never be as good as it was for the first batch.

I am convinced beyond all reasonable doubt that all the manufacturers/sources/resellers were completely clueless that product was being purchased for testing purposes. Can I prove it? Well, the only ones that can give you the answer is the sources themselves. And who is going to believe them.

So why do I have such confidence in the integrity of the collection process. I will tell you:

(1) NO ONE knew I was actively starting a testing program when the samples were collected.

(2) The trusted buyers were real-life personal friends that I've known for years. I will not hesitate to vouch for their honesty and trustworthiness.

(3) The trusted buyers are not well-known in bodybuilding circles / forums. I don't think most have ever even posted at all on bodybuilding/AAS forums. They are certainly not well-known in the community.

(4) The trusted buyers have never previously ordered from the reseller/source/manufacturer.

(5) They have never had any prior communication with the reseller/source/manufacturer.

(6) They have never previously used any of the product from any of the manufacturers selected for testing in the first batch.

The integrity of the collection process will never be any better than it was for the first batch of samples. I will summarily dismiss any hypothesis that proposes this an explanation for the overwhelmingly positive results.

Of course, you can choose to believe me or choose to call bullshit on the program. I don't care.

Actually, I do care. I care a lot. I have been a tireless advocate of steroid education and harm reduction for over 20 years on the Internet. I have a consistent and long track record of fairness and objectivity. This program is most important thing that I've ever been involved with in the AAS space. It has the potential to be a gamechanger that will have the greatest impact on the health and safety of the AAS-using community than anything else short of AAS legalization.

I'm all in on this program with considerable financial resources and significant time invested in its success. I'm not here to promote anyone's agenda, to validate anyone's preconceived beliefs about the UG market, to confirm anyone's expectations about UGLs. I'm only interested in the truth. And I will never apologize for the presenting the truth. If you're down with that then please help support the lab testing program.

 

[rpbb]

Good post. I wish the people making their recommendations for how things could better start off by realizing the time, thought, effort and money it took to start this program

 

[manafest]

Thankyou millard for posting that..!

 

[Mr.B66]

Sure thing, it was Alin. I haven't been hiding his name on purpose. Also, to be fair i know absolutely nothing about pharmacom, gp, or anyone else that was tested. I did feel i had plenty of individual and collective local experience with Alin/Balkan.

Wow!! That surprises me a little. I thought about placing an order with him after meeting a guy in my gym that told me he's been using alin for years and never had anything but top notch gear.
But then again this guy is a high level amateur and maybe this is why he gets great gear, so he can tell people like me how great a-shop is.
And he's probably unaware he's being used.

 

[redrum720]

@Millard Baker did you get the analysis of breakdown on the compounds that were tested

Or did I miss it
They all said pass but would like to know what actually passed

 

[T_L]

Maybe I'm being naive, but hopefully someone can clear this up for me.

So pretty much anyone with enough money behind them can become a source right? Say I put in a big offer to Alpha Pharma and Pharmacom (just an example), create a website, pay to get on eroids, and I'm now a source.........

When do I get the memo from Alpha Pharma and Pharmacom that half my stock will be bunk so I can selectively scam people? Surely some source out there would let this out if it ever happened to them.

From everything I've read (admittedly I'm new to this particular board), it seems far more likely this whole problem with bunk gear is a geographical thing. I only ever read here, or UK based forums, and you rarely hear about bad gear in the UK. In fact it was this board that opened my eyes to bad sources/labs.

I don't know, maybe the UK boards are full of 'shills' and reps, maybe the red flags happen more here because of the amount of testing you guys do........ You just don't hear about scamming over in the UK, especially on the scale you seem to get in the US.

 

[CensoredBoardsSuck]

It will be a shame if people end up calling bullshit on the truth. Some people wlll refuse to believe the truth if it doesn't confirm their preconceived beliefs and expectations. If they have such confidence in these beliefs, then there is no need for an independent and objective lab testing program. The current situation is adequate for them. They don't really want the truth.

It doesn't matter how beautiful your theory is, it doesn't matter how smart you are. If it doesn't agree with experiment, it's wrong. — Richard P. Feynman

 

[grey]

Maybe I'm being naive, but hopefully someone can clear this up for me.

...

When do I get the memo from Alpha Pharma and Pharmacom that half my stock will be bunk so I can selectively scam people? Surely some source out there would let this out if it ever happened to them.

Generally speaking I would expect the selective scammers to be the resellers themselves, not their upstream supplier.

Basically a version of stepping on drugs but instead of cutting each batch to underdoes, the reseller simply starts usbbing in underdosed vials or completely undosed dummy products that simply mimic the look of the UGL "legit" gear.

Not to say that upstream providers couldn't do this or get understrength raws etc... but judging from user anecdotes the likeiest links in the chain for scamming are the reseller/re-bottlers.

And as you say, were this happening to the resellers they would in fact be talking about it.

 

[DragonFlames]

I know in my mind when everyone assumes all sources are loaded with bunk that it is just not possible. There is no way that every single source being tested is always bunk every time.

I also know in my mind, that not every source out there has completely issue free gear. Some sources may be mostly garbage, others may be almost pristine, but nobody will exist without a single issue ever.

The answer is always going to be somewhere in between these two extremes.

The key to this testing program, as well as any other, is trying to discern which products are MORE LIKELY to be issue free or at least have fewer issues.

 

[Cml41987]

I know in my mind when everyone assumes all sources are loaded with bunk that it is just not possible. There is no way that every single source being tested is always bunk every time.

I also know in my mind, that not every source out there has completely issue free gear. Some sources may be mostly garbage, others may be almost pristine, but nobody will exist without a single issue ever.

The answer is always going to be somewhere in between these two extremes.

The key to this testing program, as well as any other, is trying to discern which products are MORE LIKELY to be issue free or at
least have fewer issues.

Exactly!!! Even Walmart has mess ups sometimes.. I bought a ps4 game there that had no game in it. Still shrink rapped and everything. So that means wal mart sold me a bunk game that was packaged wrong by Sony are whoever packages the games. So everyone will have issues at some point but it's is exactly like you said, you have to find the ones that are the most reliable!! Wich is exactly what this program is capable of showing us in time!!

 

[super8]

Good post. I wish the people making their recommendations for how things could better start off by realizing the time, thought, effort and money it took to start this program

Exactly what I'm thinking as I read this thread. This man (Millard) has 20+ years of thoughts and ideas put into this program. Some of these recommendations make me cringe because he has already explained the reasoning behind his strategies. I guess I just get annoyed by people who are making recommendations when they obviously haven't even taken the time to read the thread first.

 

[G.I. Bro]

It will be a shame if people end up calling bullshit on the truth. Some people wlll refuse to believe the truth if it doesn't confirm their preconceived beliefs and expectations. If they have such confidence in these beliefs, then there is no need for an independent and objective lab testing program. The current situation is adequate for them. They don't really want the truth.

It will be a shame if people are only willing to donate and support the program if they like the results. They should donate and support the program because they like the truth regardless of what the results may or may not be.

AnabolicLab has no agenda here other seeking the truth - quite simply to find out exactly what is in the bottle. It's not out to prove that the underground AAS market is terrible. It's not out to prove that all UGLs suck. It's not out to prove that any particular UGL is good or bad. It's not out to convince anyone to never buy from a particular source again. It has none of these biases.

I think people should ask themselves what they really want - what is their agenda? Is it the truth? Or is it to support only those efforts that keep other people from using a source that may have screwed them over in the past? Unfortunately, AnabolicLab's isn't on a quest to punish those sources that have history of customer service/product complaints. It is ONLY to determine what is in the bottle today. If it accomplishes any of these other things people want it to do, then it is only incidental.

The thing about this unbiased and objective approach that I have is that I have no control over the results. I will never manufacture or manipulate results for marketing purposes in a way that I think will create the most community support and raise the most donations for the cause. Just like I will never pander to sources/manufacturers with promises of favorable results to gain more funding, I will never promise to deliver any specific results for the community in order to gain more donations. All you are going to get from me is the truth and nothing more. If you want something else, I can't help you.

You can propose as many hypotheses as you like to explain why the results from the first batch are overwhelmingly positive. But one thing I can promise you is that it has nothing to do with the collection procedures. The anonymity and secrecy of sample collection will likely never be as good as it was for the first batch.

I am convinced beyond all reasonable doubt that all the manufacturers/sources/resellers were completely clueless that product was being purchased for testing purposes. Can I prove it? Well, the only ones that can give you the answer is the sources themselves. And who is going to believe them.

So why do I have such confidence in the integrity of the collection process. I will tell you:

(1) NO ONE knew I was actively starting a testing program when the samples were collected.

(2) The trusted buyers were real-life personal friends that I've known for years. I will not hesitate to vouch for their honesty and trustworthiness.

(3) The trusted buyers are not well-known in bodybuilding circles / forums. I don't think most have ever even posted at all on bodybuilding/AAS forums. They are certainly not well-known in the community.

(4) The trusted buyers have never previously ordered from the reseller/source/manufacturer.

(5) They have never had any prior communication with the reseller/source/manufacturer.

(6) They have never previously used any of the product from any of the manufacturers selected for testing in the first batch.

The integrity of the collection process will never be any better than it was for the first batch of samples. I will summarily dismiss any hypothesis that proposes this an explanation for the overwhelmingly positive results.

Of course, you can choose to believe me or choose to call bullshit on the program. I don't care.

Actually, I do care. I care a lot. I have been a tireless advocate of steroid education and harm reduction for over 20 years on the Internet. I have a consistent and long track record of fairness and objectivity. This program is most important thing that I've ever been involved with in the AAS space. It has the potential to be a gamechanger that will have the greatest impact on the health and safety of the AAS-using community than anything else short of AAS legalization.

I'm all in on this program with considerable financial resources and significant time invested in its success. I'm not here to promote anyone's agenda, to validate anyone's preconceived beliefs about the UG market, to confirm anyone's expectations about UGLs. I'm only interested in the truth. And I will never apologize for the presenting the truth. If you're down with that then please help support the lab testing program.

Top tier UGL actually using dirt cheap test raws in said products? I'm not surprised at all. If they get anything right, it's usually the test. Cheapest raw. I'm not sure why people are so shocked. These are all good UGL.

Test some less reputable UGL and some more exotic products with expensive raws like primo and results will not be so great.

Millard, stay the course. Meso is full of people that absolutely tear down every UGL that comes along, justly or not. Nothing shocking with these results, your method and approach to obtaining samples from the regular supply chains, anonymously, are all solid and it's a huge service to the community. Keep up the good work. Everyone needs to donate!

 

[T_L]

Generally speaking I would expect the selective scammers to be the resellers themselves, not their upstream supplier.

Basically a version of stepping on drugs but instead of cutting each batch to underdoes, the reseller simply starts usbbing in underdosed vials or completely undosed dummy products that simply mimic the look of the UGL "legit" gear.

Not to say that upstream providers couldn't do this or get understrength raws etc... but judging from user anecdotes the likeiest links in the chain for scamming are the reseller/re-bottlers.

And as you say, were this happening to the resellers they would in fact be talking about it.

I see what you're saying, but how cost effective would it be to produce identical fakes, especially compared to what they're paying for bulk orders? How easy is it to un-crimp and re-crimp vials?

We could use Alpha as an example....... The reseller could open the boxes, replace the amps, reseal the boxes. The customer would be unaware, the product would pass the authentication process, but what does the reseller gain from this? It must cost a fair bit to make exact copies of amps for each box (matching dates,batches etc). If selective scamming is used to make money, this seems a very expensive way to go about it.

I'm not disagreeing or anything, just seems an expensive way to do things, when the sole purpose seems to be making money. The margins surely can't be big enough to go to all that effort?

 

[DragonFlames]

^^ the margins are pretty enormous actually. When you think about making a 500% or more profit on just test prop, even selling it at a reasonably low price. They make great money already selling good hormones, but human nature is to want more. So some of the more unscrupulous decide, well we can make 50000% profit by just selling some vegetable oil.

 

[grey]

I see what you're saying, but how cost effective would it be to produce identical fakes, especially compared to what they're paying for bulk orders? How easy is it to un-crimp and re-crimp vials?

It is a good point, but I would include in the margin calculation that selling a completely bunk vial also carries none of the criminal risks with it. They had to order no additional raws from China, kept no additional illegal materials in your facility, and are simply shipping vegetable oil.

So in addition to the lowered costs, the folks doing selective scamming are also lowering their risk.

 

[Docd187123]

It is a good point, but I would include in the margin calculation that selling a completely bunk vial also carries none of the criminal risks with it. They had to order no additional raws from China, kept no additional illegal materials in your facility, and are simply shipping vegetable oil.

So in addition to the lowered costs, the folks doing selective scamming are also lowering their risk.

You do run the risk for criminal prosecution for bunk gear. Just like with recreational drugs where ppl have been arrested and prosecuted for the sale and/or possession of substances that weren't drugs.

 

[grey]

You do run the risk for criminal prosecution for bunk gear. Just like with recreational drugs where ppl have been arrested and prosecuted for the sale and/or possession of substances that weren't drugs.

This varies wildly on your jurisdiction.

In many places it is far more legal and less risky to sell oregano baggies to would-be potheads and veggie oil to would-be gear consumers than the legit deal.

Almost *everywhere* drug conviction sentencing is also done based on the total weight/volume of drugs the bust contained.

So having a stash that is 50% or more "nothing but oil" would lower your legal risk by a tremendous margin let alone the knock on effect of not needing to order raws, cook the solutions, etc. At that point it would only rise to the level of "paraphernalia" possession at worst.

 

[retpsd]

Some people wlll refuse to believe the truth if it doesn't confirm their preconceived beliefs and expectations.

You just summarized a large part of what is wrong with society in general!!!

 

[Fouts]

This varies wildly on your jurisdiction.

In many places it is far more legal and less risky to sell oregano baggies to would-be potheads and veggie oil to would-be gear consumers than the legit deal.

Almost *everywhere* drug conviction sentencing is also done based on the total weight/volume of drugs the bust contained.

So having a stash that is 50% or more "nothing but oil" would lower your legal risk by a tremendous margin let alone the knock on effect of not needing to order raws, cook the solutions, etc. At that point it would only rise to the level of "paraphernalia" possession at worst.

Actually in Texas they can include the filler. A senators son was facing life in prison for hash brownies because they were allowed to include the sugar, baking powder, etc. into the final weight.

He got off probably having a lot to do with being a senators son but had he been some regular kid who's dad was a construction worker or some shit he'd still be in prison.

Each state has its own laws that don't always mimic federal laws. Hence the legalization of marijuana in Colorado. It's legal in the state, but still very illegal federally.

 

[Fouts]

Exactly!!! Even Walmart has mess ups sometimes.. I bought a ps4 game there that had no game in it. Still shrink rapped and everything. So that means wal mart sold me a bunk game that was packaged wrong by Sony are whoever packages the games. So everyone will have issues at some point but it's is exactly like you said, you have to find the ones that are the most reliable!! Wich is exactly what this program is capable of showing us in time!!

A Walmart reverse scammer!? Now I've seen it all! Lol! Jk bro!

I actually like what u said a lot it might not be very effective right this second, but in the long run it will be a priceless resource. Consistency is very important.
Wish this was being done all along but never too late to start! I'm in!