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[Iron_Yuppie]

I guess the point of sustanon and the blend of 4 esters is that it keeps levels steady by the different combination of release times of the different esters so it doesn’t need to be injected more often than once a week.

This is not what I would define as stability.

Edit: No clue why it downloaded three of the same thing. Apologies.

 

[Athlete127]

The reason is because the user is really bad at math and highly susceptible to marketing.

so you know more than ALL the professional bodybuilders and top tier coaches?

PS - nobody is pinning Cyp or E twice a week lol

 

[Youngblood]

This is not what I would define as stability.

Edit: No clue why it downloaded three of the same thing. Apologies.

This is 250mg of sus across a week. .35cc ed. it can be as stable as you want.

 

[Iron_Yuppie]

so you know more than ALL the professional bodybuilders and top tier coaches?

PS - nobody is pinning Cyp or E twice a week lol

Pretty much everyone who uses c/e pins it twice a week.

 

[Iron_Yuppie]

This is 250mg of sus across a week. .35cc ed. it can be as stable as you want.

Well yeah, nobody is arguing otherwise. Seven pins a week is more than two. That was the original point. Pretty much everything can be optimized for maximum stability, it’s just a matter of how often someone wishes to pin.

 

[Youngblood]

Well yeah, nobody is arguing otherwise. Seven pins a week is more than two. That was the original point. Pretty much everything can be optimized for maximum stability, it’s just a matter of how often someone wishes to pin.

idk how I misread the point you were making. where on the same page. my bad playboy.

 

[Athlete127]

Pretty much everyone who uses c/e pins it twice a week.

No they dont lol...
I work with hundreds of people they pin it ATLEAST 3x weekly
Anyone I know in the whole fitness scene pins it 3x weekly or EOD still.
Where are you getting this from? Your YMCA?
We are talking bodybuilding not TRT

 

[Rido]

It’s about the initial spike, not the time spent above the curve. Every injection, irrespective of ester, causes a spike.

Is there anything evidence(studies) to support this? I guess I am wondering someone that has their own production doesnt experience this daily

 

[Iron_Yuppie]

No they dont lol...
I work with hundreds of people they pin it ATLEAST 3x weekly
Anyone I know in the whole fitness scene pins it 3x weekly or EOD still.
Where are you getting this from? Your YMCA?
We are talking bodybuilding not TRT

I’m talking about trt and what you’d consider beginner/intermediate cycles, i.e. test in the 500-600mg range. Once you start to push the oil volume higher it’s useful to inject more frequently. I’m sure plenty of people pin more often than is strictly necessary, but if we’re talking about what’s a perfectly acceptable schedule then there’s no need to pin e/c more often than twice a week. That’s the benefit of those esters vs much shorter ones. My original argument—which has yet to be addressed—is that pinning e/c twice a week is easier than pinning sustanon daily. I don’t see how that’s controversial.

 

[Athlete127]

I’m talking about trt and what you’d consider beginner/intermediate cycles, i.e. test in the 500-600mg range. Once you start to push the oil volume higher it’s useful to inject more frequently. I’m sure plenty of people pin more often than is strictly necessary, but if we’re talking about what’s a perfectly acceptable schedule then there’s no need to pin e/c more often than twice a week. That’s the benefit of those esters vs much shorter ones. My original argument—which has yet to be addressed—is that pinning e/c twice a week is easier than pinning sustanon daily. I don’t see how that’s controversial.

I guess I got what you said mixed up. Apologies

 

[SirUnknown]

What do you use caber for?

Supposedly for sex drive but As I keep researching not the best way due to possible prolactin crashing. Now I'm looking for something better.

Any suggestions

 

[Iron_Yuppie]

Is there anything evidence(studies) to support this? I guess I am wondering someone that has their own production doesnt experience this daily

Erythrocytosis Following Testosterone Therapy - PMC

A rapid increase in awareness of androgen deficiency has led to substantial increases in prescribing of testosterone therapy (TTh), with the benefits of improvements in mood, libido, bone density, muscle mass, body composition, energy and cognition. ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

“For men undergoing TTh, the risk of developing erythrocytosis compared to controls is well established, with short acting injectable formulations having the highest associated incidence.”

In my own experiments more frequent injections have skyrocketed my HCT whereas now my levels are steady on once a week dosing. It’s a battle I’ve fought for almost five years now, so I’ve read everything that’s out there and tinkered with my protocol many times.

 

[Rido]

Erythrocytosis Following Testosterone Therapy - PMC

A rapid increase in awareness of androgen deficiency has led to substantial increases in prescribing of testosterone therapy (TTh), with the benefits of improvements in mood, libido, bone density, muscle mass, body composition, energy and cognition. ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

“For men undergoing TTh, the risk of developing erythrocytosis compared to controls is well established, with short acting injectable formulations having the highest associated incidence.”

In my own experiments more frequent injections have skyrocketed my HCT whereas now my levels are steady on once a week dosing. It’s a battle I’ve fought for almost five years now, so I’ve read everything that’s out there and tinkered with my protocol many times.

That is discussing a short acting ester with increased frequency, not a long acting ester on an increase frequency. That creates a bunch of high peaks and low troughs instead of a consistent flow.


thats great it hasnt affected you dude. I still find it hard to believe that a wider gap with higher peaks and lower troughs are not associated with elevated EPO levels. I still havent seen anything that supports that.


Here is a study that supports increased frequency though.

Comparative assessment of outcomes and adverse effects using two different intramuscular testosterone therapy regimens: 100 mg IM weekly or 200 mg IM biweekly - International Journal of Impotence Research

This study aimed to compare the change in levels of several laboratory values and the development of adverse events using two commonly used intramuscular testosterone therapy regimens. Men were included if they were 18 years or older and received one of the following testosterone therapy...

www.nature.com

But as I said, whatever works for you. how my body responds to testosterone is clearly different than other people.

 

[Avnj5]

Sustanon for me personally works as it’s advertised and keeps the most stable. It’s also the best chance at getting pharma grade if you want it with omnadren and aspen available if you know the right places.

 

[Iron_Yuppie]

That is discussing a short acting ester with increased frequency, not a long acting ester on an increase frequency. That creates a bunch of high peaks and low troughs instead of a consistent flow.

Testosterone e/c are the two most commonly used esters, both of which are referred to in this study as shorter acting. Both e and c, injected once weekly, produced the highest incidence of erythrocytosis. Test u produced the lowest. Extrapolate out those findings and you’ll conclude that more frequent injections (once weekly vs e6w) caused erythrocytosis, therefore even more frequent administration of e/c (or even shorter esters) would amplify those effects. The only way around that would be if you did daily injections that mimicked natural levels, which would mean a very small amount of prop or TPP daily. Figure something like 10mg TPP or prop would be the upper limit of that.

 

[Rido]

Testosterone e/c are the two most commonly used esters, both of which are referred to in this study as shorter acting. Both e and c, injected once weekly, produced the highest incidence of erythrocytosis. Test u produced the lowest. Extrapolate out those findings and you’ll conclude that more frequent injections (once weekly vs e6w) caused erythrocytosis, therefore even more frequent administration of e/c (or even shorter esters) would amplify those effects. The only way around that would be if you did daily injections that mimicked natural levels, which would mean a very small amount of prop or TPP daily. Figure something like 10mg TPP or prop would be the upper limit of that.

I stand corrected for the testosterone form on shorter acting.

The study I linked atleast compared the same drug, but different frequency. your study is compared 1 drug at one frequency vs many other drugs at their own. That isnt how your interpret studies, you can only draw a hypothesis from this and need another study to confirm it.

However, it even states that Test E has a half life of 4-5 and Test C is 7-8.

It isnt fair to compare a weekly shot of half life of 5-8 days to something that has a half life of 5-6 weeks.

There are 3 conclusions that can be drawn here.

1.is that less injections of testosterone of any ESTER will create a peak.

2. that less hormonal fluctuations create a peak

3. Test U creates less issues vs test E/C(Which I think is the point of the study) as it compares to the other forms with a consistent delivery system.


Now they havent had as many studies of this lately but just assuming on the practice of the "better" TRT clinics increase injection frequency who deal with erthrocytosis on patients regularly. I do not see them typically advise 1 day a week.


Test E once every 7 days




Once every 9 weeks (I cant do 9) for something that has a half life of 33 days?



To draw a conclusion that less test E/C injections would create less EPO levels is a little off.

If you really wanted to follow off of what your study found, go do test U regularly.

There is a SUBQ study that was funded by a SUBQ Test E smartpen that claims less issues with hct because of daily injections. Xyosted

I guess you can draw your own conclusion from this study, but I do not necessarily agree with your interpretation. I also do not believe that was the point of your study.


The conclusion(from my perspective) is that Test U is a better option for those that suffer from Erythrocytosis from Test E/C WEEKLY injections.

More importantly. Association/Correlation is not causation.

 

[Bigdiddy]

Sustanon 250 contains, per mL, short-acting testosterone propionate, 60 mg of testosterone phenylpropionate, 60 mg of testosterone isocaproate, and 100 mg of testosterone decanoate. The first, testosterone propionate, is short-acting and gives Sustanon a quick onset of action in a steroid cycle. The other esters are medium to long-acting.

 

[Bigdiddy]

Omnadren 250 is quite similar to Sustanon 250, and is different only in that 100 mg/mL of it (of 250 mg/mL total) is testosterone hexanoate instead of the testosterone decanoate used in Sustanon. For this reason, Omnadren 250 has a shorter half life, and will give a faster initial increase in blood level. This accounts for the claim of increased water retention and increased side effects, since levels, at first, are higher for the same dosage.

The claim that Omnadren 250 has a duration effect of “a good 2-3 weeks” is somewhat misleading since the half life of the longest lived component is only about 5 days. There is of course some effect 2 or 3 weeks after injection, but relatively little

 

[limitphobic]

What do you use caber for?

I believe it’s for progesterone elimination caused by Nor-type steroids. It has similar sides as high estrogen but an AI won’t be able to eliminate it because it’s not estrogen. It’s progesterone.

Definitely wanna fact check that fellas because that’s just off of memory…

 

[DoritoBod]

Omnadren 250 is quite similar to Sustanon 250, and is different only in that 100 mg/mL of it (of 250 mg/mL total) is testosterone hexanoate instead of the testosterone decanoate used in Sustanon. For this reason, Omnadren 250 has a shorter half life, and will give a faster initial increase in blood level. This accounts for the claim of increased water retention and increased side effects, since levels, at first, are higher for the same dosage.

The claim that Omnadren 250 has a duration effect of “a good 2-3 weeks” is somewhat misleading since the half life of the longest lived component is only about 5 days. There is of course some effect 2 or 3 weeks after injection, but relatively little

If you're taking blends because you want fast acting test, why wouldn't you just pin one of the short esters?

And then for more stability, just switch to Test E/C eod after you reach your desired test level.

Like sure, I get that you may want some fast acting test, but what's benefit of having decanoate or hexanoate slowly building up in concentration in the background? I guess if you don't want to adjust dosing, it provides a bit of a linear build up of test overtime? Idk. Just spitballing here.