MESO-Rx

Anabolic Steroids

Comprehensive Guide to PCT

I hold very little fat (measured it yesterday and I seem to be at 8%). I have been the type of person that seem to burn fat naturally with very little activity. Can I assume that I have high metabolism given the aforementioned and calculate a half-life for test e of 5 days?
 
IRQ_001 said:
I hold very little fat (measured it yesterday and I seem to be at 8%). I have been the type of person that seem to burn fat naturally with very little activity. Can I assume that I have high metabolism given the aforementioned and calculate a half-life for test e of 5 days?
Click to expand...

For PCT?
 
IRQ_001 said:
Yes Doc...not sure if it applies in this case...
Click to expand...

I do not imagine that to be the case. One thing to consider is that low body fat is another possible cause for hypogonadism. This goes to an area of synchronization. This has only been discussed peripherally, but, IMO, is critical for the HPTA. Tapering demonstrates its importance.
 
That's also interesting..I assumed a low bf % would help increase TT levels because of less negative estrogen feedback.

I guess my question now is, what do you consider "low" and at what point does it become a problem? 8% 6%?
 
Rossow LM, Fukuda DH, Fahs CA, Loenneke JP, Stout JR. Natural bodybuilding competition preparation and recovery: a 12-month case study. Int J Sports Physiol Perform 2013;8(5):582-92. Natural Bodybuilding Competition Preparation and Recovery: A 12-Month Case Study

Bodybuilding is a sport in which competitors are judged on muscular appearance. This case study tracked a drug-free male bodybuilder (age 26-27 y) for the 6 mo before and after a competition.

Purpose: The aim of this study was to provide the most comprehensive physiological profile of bodybuilding competition preparation and recovery ever compiled.

Methods: Cardiovascular parameters, body composition, strength, aerobic capacity, critical power, mood state, resting energy expenditure, and hormonal and other blood parameters were evaluated.

Results: Heart rate decreased from 53 to 27 beats/min during preparation and increased to 46 beats/min within 1 mo after competition. Brachial blood pressure dropped from 132/69 to 104/56 mmHg during preparation and returned to 116/64 mmHg at 6 mo after competition.

Percent body fat declined from 14.8% to 4.5% during preparation and returned to 14.6% during recovery. Strength decreased during preparation and did not fully recover during 6 months of recovery. Testosterone declined from 9.22 to 2.27 ng/mL during preparation and returned back to the baseline level, 9.91 ng/mL, after competition. Total mood disturbance increased from 6 to 43 units during preparation and recovered to 4 units 6 mo after competition.

Conclusions: This case study provides a thorough documentation of the physiological changes that occurred during natural bodybuilding competition and recovery.
 

Attachments

wow, 14.8 to 4.5 then to 14.6 within one year for a natural!

Ape, I'd say below 6% is where you are playing stupid...
 
This is too abstract for me. The changes observed could be and are most likely induced by the extreme caloric deficit that is required for this amount of bodyfat reduction in the given time frame (I'm assuming they started cutting about 3 months before competition..this is common I believe)

A better study would be to test subjects at 12-14% have them cut to 6% then retest 6 months after maintaining the lower bodyfat%

My point being that this study does not necessarily show a detrimental effect when maintaining a low bf% but rather that maintaining an extreme caloric deficit is.
 
Thanks for posting this study Dr. do not take my previous post as being ungrateful this is still very useful information and I appreciate the time you take to help me and other members with your research.

I will not be at a caloric deficit during PCT now.

Those are incredible changes in TT.
 
Thanx guys this is lots of great info. Back in early 2000s when i was closing in on first cycle time i did lots of research and asked questions on my old home message board. My cousin n his bud were finishing up their second cycles and planning trt within a week of finishing up eq n test e. I suggested to them that the trt is to soon and there is to much hormone in their body to begin producing its own test again. My cousin knew i researched and took my suggestion but his friend didnt and he crashed and burned hard. Still i have a lot to learn here. Thanx very much guys
car-h
 
Ape, you had mentioned that blood work should be done "2-3 weeks after cessation of treatment". Is this not too early? My understanding is that blood work is to be done six weeks after completion of PCT. Thoughts?...
 
In addition, you had mentioned that Bill Roberts advocates for the use of hCG at " 500iu EOD throughout the cycle". This is not inline with the article he published in the link below:

Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) and Post Cycle Therapy (PCT)

"The period of HCG use will typically be about 4 weeks. In an 8-12 week cycle, the 4 weeks (approximately) of use would be immediately prior to the last steroid injection. In a 14 week cycle, the about 4-week period should be in the late-middle part of the cycle. Examples would be using HCG in weeks 6-9, in weeks 9-12, or anywhere in-between.

The dosing is divided into at least 3 times per week. For example, 275 IU 3x/week provides 5000 IU over four weeks. But dosing could be daily, every other day, or 4x/week, as examples. There is little or no practical difference in results among these different schedules. It’s a matter of personal preference."

Thoughts?
 
I did not want to get specific with Bill's HCG protocol which is why I mentioned the article but yes that is what I was referring to.

I would have to agree that 6 weeks is a better indicator of recovery, but 8 weeks is even better and so on and so forth.

So I opted for the shortest time that will still be fairly accurate from my understanding and which more people will actually follow through with.

Maybe I shouldn't cater to the majority but let's be real...how many guys are actually doing a full pct? Let alone wait a month and a half after just to test?

To be honest though I was actually thinking of changing it to 4 weeks. Might do that since you called me out on it ;)
 
ApeShitFuckJacked said:
I did not want to get specific with Bill's HCG protocol which is why I mentioned the article but yes that is what I was referring to.

I would have to agree that 6 weeks is a better indicator of recovery, but 8 weeks is even better and so on and so forth.

So I opted for the shortest time that will still be fairly accurate from my understanding and which more people will actually follow through with.

Maybe I shouldn't cater to the majority but let's be real...how many guys are actually doing a full pct? Let alone wait a month and a half after just to test?

To be honest though I was actually thinking of changing it to 4 weeks. Might do that since you called me out on it ;)
Click to expand...

Thank you for the honest reply Ape...much appreciated! Perhaps referencing Bill Roberts in stating that hCG is to be taken THROUGHOUT the cycle needs to be corrected. He had mentioned that "A total HCG use of 5000-10,000 IU over a period of about 4-8 weeks can restore responsiveness". Therefore, a person with a 12+ weeks cycle might be mislead (?) or might spend a little more than necessary on hCG.

In addition, I was lead to believe by Dr. Scally in one of his responses to my posts that SERMS can have an impact on your TT levels for quite a while providing for an inaccurate natural TT count. I'm unsure as to what is an adequate period of time before you can have blood work after PCT, however, as you stated, two weeks is a little too early and perhaps six weeks (?) might paint a better picture.

Honestly, I wouldn't care about people's compliance in the presence of what must be done AT A MINIMUM to ensure a better recovery. People can either take your proper advice or suffer the consequences. Leave the choice to them...

Once again, great thread and thank you for your efforts!

IRQ
 
IRQ_001 said:
Thank you for the honest reply Ape...much appreciated! Perhaps referencing Bill Roberts in stating that hCG is to be taken THROUGHOUT the cycle needs to be corrected. He had mentioned that "A total HCG use of 5000-10,000 IU over a period of about 4-8 weeks can restore responsiveness". Therefore, a person with a 12+ weeks cycle might be mislead (?) or might spend a little more than necessary on hCG.

In addition, I was lead to believe by Dr. Scally in one of his responses to my posts that SERMS can have an impact on your TT levels for quite a while providing for an inaccurate natural TT count. I'm unsure as to what is an adequate period of time before you can have blood work after PCT, however, as you stated, two weeks is a little too early and perhaps six weeks (?) might paint a better picture.

Honestly, I wouldn't care about people's compliance in the presence of what must be done AT A MINIMUM to ensure a better recovery. People can either take your proper advice or suffer the consequences. Leave the choice to them...

Once again, great thread and thank you for your efforts!

IRQ
Click to expand...

I have found that 4 weeks off all meds (LH & TT) provides an excellent idea for HPTA Restoration. If the LH is still high, one might wait a few more weeks.

As far as hCG use, I suggest use during the cycle and the initial stages of PCT (after the last pin/oral).
 
The one thing about this PCT protocol that really differ's from the norm is the 35 day start time.
How did 2 weeks after last pin get to be such a common choice for PCT start time?

Is it really necessary to wait until every last bit of exogenous test is gone before starting PCT? Can't there be some over lap?

What would you expect blood serum levels to be at on 5 weeks after pin, I'm guessing they would be down in the 100's at this point. If you were to start PCT based on blood serum levels, wouldn't 400 ng/dl be a reasonable number? There should not be any negative feedback on the HPTA at those levels, and serms should work as intended.

1000's and 1000's of dudes have started PCT at two weeks, and most have successful PCT's. Are they successful because of the PCT or in spite of the PCT?
Ape, and anyone else that has done the 35 days after last pin, what was your experience like? did you crash hard before rebounding? I've only done one PCT myself, and started at 2 weeks. It seemed like it worked well, and I never felt completely crashed. The hard crash is one thing that obviously scares some people away from trying the 5 weeks after last pin start time.
 
Burrr said:
The one thing about this PCT protocol that really differ's from the norm is the 35 day start time.
How did 2 weeks after last pin get to be such a common choice for PCT start time?

Is it really necessary to wait until every last bit of exogenous test is gone before starting PCT? Can't there be some over lap?

What would you expect blood serum levels to be at on 5 weeks after pin, I'm guessing they would be down in the 100's at this point. If you were to start PCT based on blood serum levels, wouldn't 400 ng/dl be a reasonable number? There should not be any negative feedback on the HPTA at those levels, and serms should work as intended.

1000's and 1000's of dudes have started PCT at two weeks, and most have successful PCT's. Are they successful because of the PCT or in spite of the PCT?
Ape, and anyone else that has done the 35 days after last pin, what was your experience like? did you crash hard before rebounding? I've only done one PCT myself, and started at 2 weeks. It seemed like it worked well, and I never felt completely crashed. The hard crash is one thing that obviously scares some people away from trying the 5 weeks after last pin start time.
Click to expand...

Dude? I specifically put that 400ng/dl is going to be a very reasonable number everyone can use. And I further stated that your own personal natty TT levels should be used which in most cases are going to be MORE than 400ng/dl.

There is absolutely no chance of a crash using this method especially because we are starting HCG two weeks prior to levels becoming optimal for recovery. How can you crash if you never even reach below your natural levels?

50mg of test will put you at or above 400ng/dl. I'm not sure how else I can say it man.
 
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