MESO-Rx Exclusive Steroid users say bad things about trenbolone - how accurate are the descriptions?

[NLM36]

200mg/day.
Why would DHEA and Pregnenolone work well orally but not testosterone?

Because it will be destroyed by the liver

 

[Thegreek]

completely agree. i wonder how much harm could be prevented by just starting at a small dose and being very aware of changes as you increase?

I don’t know much about you but I’d like to offer a research option based on the above quote. Myself and a few other members here follow microdosing protocols. Which means we are using one or more compounds. Injecting daily. Usually a 5 on 2 off method of low doses. For example a lot of people will run 300mgs of each of test tren mast in the summer. Pinning a 100 mgs of each MWF. If I was going to do that. (I wouldn’t lol) it would be 60mgs of each M-F. Same amount just spread out. What a lot of people don’t realize is high doses doesn’t necessarily mean better. Your body can only process so much compound daily and the rest just literally gets shit out. It is my belief as well as others that the excess compounds that aren’t being processed by the body is where most if not all of the negative sides come from. Small daily doses that get completely processed by the body is better. I personally try to keep the total mgs of all compounds under 200 a day. Generally in the 125 to 175 range.

 

[Thegreek]

Excellent article, Mair. I love how it's a compilation of everything you've heard from your interviews and then you established some trends. Very cool angle.

I can only relate to a very small portion of the topics brought up in the article. Sleep is one, a toxic type feeling at extreme dosages is another and primal albeit detached sex does kind of touch on my experience a little bit. Otherwise, I don't find tren to be that bad at all for me... Definitely not the end all be all of AAS to me, and I've taken some hefty doses of it.

Biggest thing is, people shouldn't take so much... Everytime I read about people's tren horror stories I picture a 16 year old that took their first drink, but decided that first drink should be an entire bottle of vodka. You think vodka is now the devil because you drank the whole bottle? Maybe try just one shot next time... Then go from there. Although, we all know those people that really can't handle even that one shot.. It's just not for them.. tren isn't much different. Then there are those like me, I drank the whole bottle and things are a little spinny the next morning but mostly okay... Might do it again, wasn't fun enough to rush back into when I'm cool with a couple beers.

(If any of you don't appreciate the alcohol metaphor you can go right ahead and fuck yourself, it's gold.)

I’ve always respected your thoughts and opinions on here. I very briefly touched on this in my last post. I’d like to hear your feedback.

 

[NLM36]

I don’t know much about you but I’d like to offer a research option based on the above quote. Myself and a few other members here follow microdosing protocols. Which means we are using one or more compounds. Injecting daily. Usually a 5 on 2 off method of low doses. For example a lot of people will run 300mgs of each of test tren mast in the summer. Pinning a 100 mgs of each MWF. If I was going to do that. (I wouldn’t lol) it would be 60mgs of each M-F. Same amount just spread out. What a lot of people don’t realize is high doses doesn’t necessarily mean better. Your body can only process so much compound daily and the rest just literally gets shit out. It is my belief as well as others that the excess compounds that aren’t being processed by the body is where most if not all of the negative sides come from. Small daily doses that get completely processed by the body is better. I personally try to keep the total mgs of all compounds under 200 a day. Generally in the 125 to 175 range.

extra hormones don’t get shit out. your body uses them. if all things are on point, eating, training, rest, then the more you take the more you can grow. There comes a point in diminishing returns where sides outweigh The benefits, but this is individual. this Is also a genetic component. if there’s a guy who is training, eating and resting properly, who can handle mega doses without bad side effects then he will be a monster.

 

[Eman]

I’ve always respected your thoughts and opinions on here. I very briefly touched on this in my last post. I’d like to hear your feedback.

What a lot of people don’t realize is high doses doesn’t necessarily mean better. Your body can only process so much compound daily and the rest just literally gets shit out.

I agree with the first part, more isn't necessarily better.

The second part about the bodies inability to utilize everything is not correct. There is no evidence at all to support that. Just a thought experiment, do you think you would get more results from a micro dose of testosterone or 1 gram of testosterone? You'll certainly get more sides, but sides are typically equal to the results you get... The "results" are simply the "good" side effects you wanted to get from taking the drug, not the "leftovers".

 

[Deleted member 59947]

Because it will be destroyed by the liver

But the liver doesn't destroy DHEA and Pregnenolone?
Care to explain why?

And care to explain how I reach levels of 2200ng/dl with oral unesterified test base if it's "destroyed by the liver"?

 

[NLM36]

But the liver doesn't destroy DHEA and Pregnenolone?
Care to explain why?

And care to explain how I reach levels of 2200ng/dl with oral unesterified test base if it's "destroyed by the liver"?

IF you did, big if, then you wasted a shit ton to get there.

Oral Dhea and pregnenlone has terrible bioavailability as well, somewhere around 1.5%. I’d imagine test base is even less, because it’s, ya know, rapidly absorbed by the liver.
So they kinda are. Science

 

[PeterBond]

But the liver doesn't destroy DHEA and Pregnenolone?
Care to explain why?

And care to explain how I reach levels of 2200ng/dl with oral unesterified test base if it's "destroyed by the liver"?

Perhaps because something has severly compromised your liver's ability to metabolize testosterone. Such levels can be seen after oral administration in patients with compensated liver cirrhosis or portal caval shunts:

Influence of sex, testicular development and liver function on the bioavailability of oral testosterone - PubMed

The bioavailability of orally administered testosterone was investigated in normal and hypogonadal men, prepubertal boys, normal women, and in patients with fatty liver, liver cirrhosis and surgical portocaval shunts. Peripheral testosterone concentrations remained unchanged in normal men and...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

In otherwise healthy individuals it has hardly any impact on T levels.

 

[PeterBond]

IF you did, big if, then you wasted a shit ton to get there.

Oral Dhea and pregnenlone has terrible bioavailability as well, somewhere around 1.5%. I’d imagine test base is even less, because it’s, ya know, rapidly absorbed by the liver.
So they kinda are. Science

It's very similar for testosterone (or at least in women, but I suspect it's the same in men):

Europe PMC

Europe PMC is an archive of life sciences journal literature.

europepmc.org

 

[Thegreek]

Yes they do but I totally agree with the rest and what you said has to do with my reference to getting shit out. I just mean not totally utilized. Your body is going to process what it can based on everything you said but at somepoint it’s just not going to use all that test or whatever else. The sides. Diminishing returns. SHBG. Are all part of my just get shit out. It also just becomes a waste of money at some point. The body is only capable of so much and I believe at some point things will just become waste.

extra hormones don’t get shit out. your body uses them. if all things are on point, eating, training, rest, then the more you take the more you can grow. There comes a point in diminishing returns where sides outweigh The benefits, but this is individual. this Is also a genetic component. if there’s a guy who is training, eating and resting properly, who can handle mega doses without bad side effects then he will be a monster.

 

[Thegreek]

I agree with the first part, more isn't necessarily better.

The second part about the bodies inability to utilize everything is not correct. There is no evidence at all to support that. Just a thought experiment, do you think you would get more results from a micro dose of testosterone or 1 gram of testosterone? You'll certainly get more sides, but sides are typically equal to the results you get... The "results" are simply the "good" side effects you wanted to get from taking the drug, not the "leftovers".

I definitely agree that you’d get more from a gram but I’m talking more about mega doses. Microdosing is more about mitigating sides by keeping the dose low. I’m talking more about the guys running 2-3 grams or more a week. You think all that shit is 100 percent being processed effectively by the body. I understand that we as steroid users are the red headed step child of true scientific research but just in my general understanding of the body I can’t see how some portion of all that just doesn’t become waste.

 

[Eman]

I definitely agree that you’d get more from a gram but I’m talking more about mega doses. Microdosing is more about mitigating sides by keeping the dose low. I’m talking more about the guys running 2-3 grams or more a week. You think all that shit is 100 percent being processed effectively by the body. I understand that we as steroid users are the red headed step child of true scientific research but just in my general understanding of the body I can’t see how some portion of all that just doesn’t become waste.

There is definitely a point of diminishing returns, if that is what you're getting at.

Your results at, say, 500mg of test are not going to be quadrupled when you take 2000mg of test. Will the results at 2000mg still be greater? Yes, but it doesn't mean that your body just "shit out" any portion of the "extra" hormones... There are just physiological limits to the "results", whatever the term results mean to you.

 

[MairUnderwood(Researcher)]

What exactly are your certain of? That the guy royally fucked up and destroyed his marriage? That the guy is absolutely convinced that trenbolone is responsible?

Sure. But are you absolutely certain of the causal relationship trenbolone supposedly played? That is another question entirely.

I find these type of extreme reports the least credible when it comes to causality. It is precisely because these individuals have the most incentive of anyone to scapegoat steroids.

In the days of social media, it may seem like seeking fame and notoriety are some of the strongest incentives motivating behavior. However, there are more powerful reasons leading people to believe the things they do.

When someone engages in some truly awful and ""unforgiveable" behaviors, it's much easier to cope psychologically if you can externalize blame for your actions i.e. I'm not a bad person it was the tren that made me do it. While it won't completely absolve them from responsibility, it goes a long way towards helping preserve and maintain their self-image going forward.

Steroids are the perfect scapegoat in a society that widely demonizes. When someone scapegoats steroids, there is very little scrutiny or pushback against the claims precisely because society is so conditioned to accept steroids as evil.

Steroids-made-me-do-it may be the best path to redemption for guys involved with serious domestic and violent problems. I wouldn't take their claims at face value. The claims are more worthy of skepticism than certainty.

I love this chain of thought Millard! I was only just now reading other research that found that most AAS users see themselves as 'rational' and 'sensible' users (especially in contrast to 'junkies'). I have found this too. And this tren research is so different - there is all this talk of harm - and some say an exaggerating or embellishing of harm. This is quite a contrast to the usual stories of AAS as safe. So why the difference with tren? (1) I do think it's strength leads to more experience of harm, but (2) there could be some social or psychological reasons that harms are more likely to be attributed to tren rather than other factors. That might be the case for the mental and social harms. But what about the physical harms? The heart attacks, blocked bile ducts and blood noses and shit. Why would someone lie about that/attribute it to tren when it's not/exaggerate? Someone once said to me that sometimes bodybuilders equate risk with effectiveness. Do you think that's true? And do you think some of the experience of harm is an attempt to prove commitment to the lifestyle?
Just random thoughts, only half-baked at this stage, but would love your thoughts anyone who is interested

 

[MairUnderwood(Researcher)]

we as steroid users are the red headed step child of true scientific research

This quote is fuckin gold! As a researcher I love this kind of talk about the relationship between bodybuilding and science

 

[MairUnderwood(Researcher)]

I don’t know much about you but I’d like to offer a research option based on the above quote. Myself and a few other members here follow microdosing protocols. Which means we are using one or more compounds. Injecting daily. Usually a 5 on 2 off method of low doses. For example a lot of people will run 300mgs of each of test tren mast in the summer. Pinning a 100 mgs of each MWF. If I was going to do that. (I wouldn’t lol) it would be 60mgs of each M-F. Same amount just spread out. What a lot of people don’t realize is high doses doesn’t necessarily mean better. Your body can only process so much compound daily and the rest just literally gets shit out. It is my belief as well as others that the excess compounds that aren’t being processed by the body is where most if not all of the negative sides come from. Small daily doses that get completely processed by the body is better. I personally try to keep the total mgs of all compounds under 200 a day. Generally in the 125 to 175 range.

interesting. so is this microdosing about not only effectiveness but also harm reduction?

 

[Thegreek]

interesting. so is this microdosing about not only effectiveness but also harm reduction?

In my opinion. Yes. 100 percent. I see guys running 3 to 5 compounds at high doses. Using orals and god knows what else. I’m a TRT guy for 6 years or so now. Sometimes I run a full cycle but I never go higher than a gram a week. Most of the year I walk around at 5’7” 205 lbs and 12 percent BF. 2 dexa scans to back that up. Zero issue bloodwork. With all that said. If you can’t get a beach body done with diet and training and a little aas you’re not doing it right. aas is the icing on the cake. It’s the last ingredient. So as far as effectiveness goes aas is just another supplement to use and in my opinion less is definitely better and as discussed earlier in the thread at somepoint diminishing returns becomes a very real thing. As far as harm reduction goes I definitely think this is the way to go. The body is always trying to maintain homeostasis. When you start throwing in massive doses 2 or 3 times a week your body’s response is to try and maintain that balance. The more you inject the more your body produces a response to those injections. Estrogen progesterone spike. Lipids go to shit. Elevated BP. Liver and kidney functions suffer. Low and daily doses produce far less sides with just as good results. Again though there is very little to support this because the research isn’t there but for me personally just using common sense and logic. I’d think 200mg of test M-F is better than 500mg on Monday and Thursday. I haven’t seen him around in a while but @HIGHRISK has found the microdosing protocol to be beneficial too.

 

[Thegreek]

There is definitely a point of diminishing returns, if that is what you're getting at.

Your results at, say, 500mg of test are not going to be quadrupled when you take 2000mg of test. Will the results at 2000mg still be greater? Yes, but it doesn't mean that your body just "shit out" any portion of the "extra" hormones... There are just physiological limits to the "results", whatever the term results mean to you.

So by saying shit out may not have been the best analogy but the implication is still there. At some point whether it’s genetics diminishing returns physiological limits or some portion just passing through your body and just being excreted. As the dose increases. At some point some portion of compound will be wasted and wasted refers to all of the above. Would you agree on that.

 

[NLM36]

I definitely agree that you’d get more from a gram but I’m talking more about mega doses. Microdosing is more about mitigating sides by keeping the dose low. I’m talking more about the guys running 2-3 grams or more a week. You think all that shit is 100 percent being processed effectively by the body. I understand that we as steroid users are the red headed step child of true scientific research but just in my general understanding of the body I can’t see how some portion of all that just doesn’t become waste.

Well 3 grams of test a week was pretty gnarly and there was a huge difference between that and a gram.

So by saying shit out may not have been the best analogy but the implication is still there. At some point whether it’s genetics diminishing returns physiological limits or some portion just passing through your body and just being excreted. As the dose increases. At some point some portion of compound will be wasted and wasted refers to all of the above. Would you agree on that.

it never simply gets excreted

 

[Thegreek]

Well 3 grams of test a week was pretty gnarly and there was a huge difference between that and a gram.

it never simply gets excreted

Are you speaking from experience and everything you put into your body becomes waste and gets excreted in some form or another. Test is no difference. If you ate 1000 grams of protein do you think your body would process all that or would some become waste. Same concept.

 

[NLM36]

Are you speaking from experience and everything you put into your body becomes waste and gets excreted in some form or another. Test is no difference. If you ate 1000 grams of protein do you think your body would process all that or would some become waste. Same concept.

Yes I’m speaking from experience I ran 3grams of test a week.
no hormones do not just get wasted and excreted. Your body uses them. The body doesn’t just say “well out of this 1500mg of hormones I’m only going to use 1000 and just expel the rest.”