MESO-Rx Exclusive Steroid users say bad things about trenbolone - how accurate are the descriptions?

[MairUnderwood(Researcher)]

It isn't necessary for any forum like Meso. I was trying to give advice for academic journals. Perhaps this style of writing is more acceptable for bodybuilding magazines vs academic journals?
I guess this is outside what I normally come across in research as mine is more quantitative and all journals I have been involved with are VERY strict.
I thought if the author was shooting for a researcher/writer career she might want some differing views. However, if she has already published successfully in academic journals I guess she doesn't need too much advice so I will stop giving advice.
I do appreciate the forum contribution @MairUnderwood(Researcher) and I kind of see what you and @Millard are doing in posting here as the discussion can give you more writing points. I did answer your question in another post on why I think I am too old for Tren.

Yes, in the social sciences it is usual to quote participants verbatim in order to retain their voices as give people a voice is the point of social science research (especially qualitative research). I could put '[sic]' after every error as Millard said, but when it comes to online research I would be putting [sic] all the time and it would really break up the flow. plus I think online communication is different and that these aren't necessarily 'errors', but just a different style of communication to your formal academic style.
I do honestly appreciate your advice though

 

[Eman]

Thanks Millard, I love this line of thought and am considering including it for the book chapter I am writing on tren. Since I started researching tren it has struck me that bodybuilders describe tren like the mainstream media describe all AAS, and I am genuinely surprised by this. What does it mean when the marginalized describe their drug of choice in this "reefer madness" way? I think it does point to the fact that harms are increased by this compound (as compared to other AAS). But if these descriptions are sensationalised, embellished, exaggerated and all the other things that readers of my paper have complained about, why is this happening? To add excitement? To add danger to what are probably pretty safe lives? (I am presuming most tren users are privileged enough to live in pretty safe countries and to not be wanting for food, shelter etc).

If you ever listen to someone talk about drinking and/or hangovers, you might wonder why anyone would ever drink at all. If you take some of the anecdotes at face value, you'll hear about people making a lot of ill advised choices, getting sick and feeling horrible, maybe getting tossed into a jail cell for a night or more. The experiences get romanticized, and I've found people's tren experiences to be oddly similar.

I'm not sure if that counts as another alcohol metaphor, pretty close.

 

[lifter6973]

If you ever listen to someone talk about drinking and/or hangovers, you might wonder why anyone would ever drink at all. If you take some of the anecdotes at face value, you'll hear about people making a lot of ill advised choices, getting sick and feeling horrible, maybe getting tossed into a jail cell for a night or more. The experiences get romanticized, and I've found people's tren experiences to be oddly similar.

I'm not sure if that counts as another alcohol metaphor, pretty close.

I'd have to agree. My side effects which are worse now compared to 7 to 10 years ago are night sweats, insomnia, bad heartburn, lower cardio endurance and elevated enzymes.

These effects hit me much quicker than they did when I was younger.

When I first start tren I feel awesome and increase strength quickly. After two weeks of heavy sides, I have to tap out even though the strength is still there. I literally feel like dog shit. I'm tired but can't sleep. The heartburn is insane, my breathing is heavier and it is kind of hard to explain but I feel very 'off'.

The shit feeling likely makes me more irritable but I've never really snapped.

Like you said with alcohol though, like an alcoholic, even though the bad outweighs the good for me now, I still have trouble not being tempted by it.

 

[MairUnderwood(Researcher)]

If you ever listen to someone talk about drinking and/or hangovers, you might wonder why anyone would ever drink at all. If you take some of the anecdotes at face value, you'll hear about people making a lot of ill advised choices, getting sick and feeling horrible, maybe getting tossed into a jail cell for a night or more. The experiences get romanticized, and I've found people's tren experiences to be oddly similar.

I'm not sure if that counts as another alcohol metaphor, pretty close.

So interesting! I wonder why we romanticise the bad? to show how hardcore we are? I think it is probably pretty different but I have been known to tell stories of how I got so shitfaced on mushrooms that I lost all my memory (e.g. what I had taken, what I normally did during the day, what the bong was for etc), and even that when I was in the height of addiction that I overdosed numerous times (thankfully never to the extent that I required medical attention, luckily there was always someone there to bring me back). Why on earth do we do these things? to prove that we're tough? to prove that we're dedicated to drugs? I just don't get it

 

[MairUnderwood(Researcher)]

Like you said with alcohol though, like an alcoholic, even though the bad outweighs the good for me now, I still have trouble not being tempted by it.

It does sound almost like addiction doesn't it? But AAS are not supposed to make people addicted (although there is debate about this)

 

[Eman]

So interesting! I wonder why we romanticise the bad?

I tend to think it has something to do with the social aspect of it? When you tell a story to friends about getting "so shit faced that you..." (Fill in the blank), you're around people that can relate to it and understand because they likely have similar experiences and stories... For whatever reason, this seems to hit on a pleasure pathway in our brains because it makes us laugh, feel understood and bond with our peers.

Tren is the same way in that regard. Someone tells a story about using tren and "feeling so kinky they..." (Fill in the blank) it makes AAS users laugh/understand/etc in the same way a group of drinkers would.

 

[MairUnderwood(Researcher)]

I tend to think it has something to do with the social aspect of it? When you tell a story to friends about getting "so shit faced that you..." (Fill in the blank), you're around people that can relate to it and understand because they likely have similar experiences and stories... For whatever reason, this seems to hit on a pleasure pathway in our brains because it makes us laugh, feel understood and bond with our peers.

Tren is the same way in that regard. Someone tells a story about using tren and "feeling so kinky they..." (Fill in the blank) it makes AAS users laugh/understand/etc in the same way a group of drinkers would.

I think you may have hit on something here Eman - it could be about bonding through shared experience

 

[Eman]

I'd have to agree. My side effects which are worse now compared to 7 to 10 years ago are night sweats, insomnia, bad heartburn, lower cardio endurance and elevated enzymes.

These effects hit me much quicker than they did when I was younger.

When I first start tren I feel awesome and increase strength quickly. After two weeks of heavy sides, I have to tap out even though the strength is still there. I literally feel like dog shit. I'm tired but can't sleep. The heartburn is insane, my breathing is heavier and it is kind of hard to explain but I feel very 'off'.

The shit feeling likely makes me more irritable but I've never really snapped.

Like you said with alcohol though, like an alcoholic, even though the bad outweighs the good for me now, I still have trouble not being tempted by it.

Tren isn't that tempting to me honestly, but I understand where you're coming from. I mostly feel kind of wired from it, high doses of it did make me relate to the one guy in the article that was essentially saying you could commit every BB sin (bad diet, bad training, etc) and still see crazy changes in the mirror everyday. But still, it doesn't appeal to me as much as just doing a heavy test cycle.

 

[Type-IIx]

@MairUnderwood(Researcher)
Thank you for your thoughtful reply, and I am really glad to have you as a contributor.

I posit to you that a chapter on Tren is exciting, but when conducting interviews and coding for themes, use some of the themes you identify to explore the substances (e.g., MENT/Trest) and methods (e.g., blast and cruising) themselves rather than just the persons you are interview. Devote articles to the substances and methods.

Percentages, raw numbers, graphs/charts/tables become exciting when you have a large, heterogeneous sample. Perhaps you can find data sets to compare with.

Present readers with perspectives on some of the societal harms of AAS. Maybe that's unpopular to some, but there are externalities guys don't think about as well.

I have my own notions of interesting questions that you might not find as interesting; and that I accept.

I just encourage you to:
- not settle for samples of convenience (likely guys that are on testosterone and see a female avatar and want to connect with you) to represent the full spectrum of PED users;
- focus on other interesting compounds besides tren
- identify a harm reduction application for some of the items you code, and further explore themes that might help in reducing harm. Though prohibition is legitimate and fine, think beyond that for a population that is, by its nature, not risk averse. There's so much opportunity here if guys interview with you.

Another aspect is female users of PEDs. They are here, but we don't know much about them. We have hyperandrogenised men here that may dissuade women from posting. If they're here, they should also be thought of in terms of harm reduction. The recommendations for women are almost certainly different from practice.

Meso is likely different from the broader community of AAS users, as well. Definitely different (though there will be some crossover) from the Zyzz people.

 

[Eman]

I think you may have hit on something here Eman - it could be about bonding through shared experience

I think you also hit on something with how humans seem to want to "show how tough they are" - different side to the same coin. That one I can understand much less, personally. But I see it... Ever heard someone kind of brag about how little sleep they get/got? I think of that sometimes when I see some guys talk about how terrible they are doing on a tren cycle.

 

[MairUnderwood(Researcher)]

@MairUnderwood(Researcher)
Thank you for your thoughtful reply, and I am really glad to have you as a contributor.

I posit to you that a chapter on Tren is exciting, but when conducting interviews and coding for themes, use some of the themes you identify to explore the substances (e.g., MENT/Trest) and methods (e.g., blast and cruising) themselves rather than just the persons you are interview. Devote articles to the substances and methods.

Percentages, raw numbers, graphs/charts/tables become exciting when you have a large, heterogeneous sample. Perhaps you can find data sets to compare with.

Present readers with perspectives on some of the societal harms of AAS. Maybe that's unpopular to some, but there are externalities guys don't think about as well.

I have my own notions of interesting questions that you might not find as interesting; and that I accept.

I just encourage you to:
- not settle for samples of convenience (likely guys that are on testosterone and see a female avatar and want to connect with you) to represent the full spectrum of PED users;
- focus on other interesting compounds besides tren
- identify a harm reduction application for some of the items you code, and further explore themes that might help in reducing harm. Though prohibition is legitimate and fine, think beyond that for a population that is, by its nature, not risk averse. There's so much opportunity here if guys interview with you.

Another aspect is female users of PEDs. They are here, but we don't know much about them. We have hyperandrogenised men here that may dissuade women from posting. If they're here, they should also be thought of in terms of harm reduction. The recommendations for women are almost certainly different from practice.

Meso is likely different from the broader community of AAS users, as well. Definitely different (though there will be some crossover) from the Zyzz people.

Thanks for the tips. I would love to repeat my research with a focus on women so that I could compare things like harm reduction strategies, use patterns etc. From what I have seen in many communities men think they can advise women on how to use. I respect meso for their efforts to address this through a women only section. I just have to find more research funds to study women (indeed I have a list of women ready to talk to me including IFBB pros).
Just to put this paper in context, I have not limited myself to tren, I have been looking at all compounds and harm reduction practice in enhanced bodybuilding communities for about 4 years now. Tren just stood out so as it is talked about differently to other compounds, which is why I wrote a separate paper on it.
I am soon to submit a paper on insulin (and will write up a version of that for meso too): it is about the experience of insulin, how it is practiced, how it has changed bodybuilding etc. I am writing it with an endocrinologist. The main gist will be: insulin use for bodybuilding is not as dangerous as the previous medical literature has made out, and that bodybuilders have a pretty good (albeit uneven) understanding of the pharmacology. We will correct some of the misconceptions about insulin on both sides (medical and bodybuilder).
A paper on muscle dysmorphia is under review (again, I did not set out to study this, it just emerged as important).
I have recently published a paper on self-medicated TRT - which told the stories of some guys being refused treatment and having to turn to underground gear to fix their low test.
I have a paper drafted on the harm reduction strategies of bodybuilders re AAS in general.
Also ideas for a paper on the relationship between AAS and psychoactive drugs (inspired by the many stories I have found of people getting themselves off alcohol and ice etc by using AAS).
So don't worry, i don't have a narrow focus. it's just that you're only seeing a very small part of my findings

 

[MairUnderwood(Researcher)]

Meso is likely different from the broader community of AAS users, as well. Definitely different (though there will be some crossover) from the Zyzz people.

oh, and yes I am very aware, having hung out in various online bodybuilding communities, that meso is different. it's difference is one of the reasons I love it so much! and you're right my samples are not representative of the whole community - only those users who understand the importance of scientific study tend to volunteer to speak to me (although as you say, there has been a few that just want to talk to a woman, but not many, and they tend to drop off pretty quickly once they realise they won't get anywhere). I speak to the more 'expert' users, who tend to be well-educated and risk averse. I don't tend to speak to the YOLO types as they are too busy living once!
But as I said earlier qualitative research is not about numbers or being representative of the whole community. they are not the kind of questions these research methods can answer. Rather qualitative research is about scoping the issue, not coming in with a preconceived idea of what you will find, privileging the perspectives of the people you study over your own. It is about experience, values, norms, meanings etc. I explore the topics and then the quantitative researchers use my research to design surveys etc to see how widespread the issues I have identified are. Most of what I publish has never been studied before so you can't design a survey with no background knowledge. You would be surprised how ignorant science is about bodybuilder practices

 

[MairUnderwood(Researcher)]

I think you also hit on something with how humans seem to want to "show how tough they are" - different side to the same coin. That one I can understand much less, personally. But I see it... Ever heard someone kind of brag about how little sleep they get/got? I think of that sometimes when I see some guys talk about how terrible they are doing on a tren cycle.

yes! it's like a status symbol to be overworked and under sleeping. This may be good to consider as I had one bodybuilder say to me that 'bodybuilding is about out-suffering each other'. I suppose it is to prove how dedicated to the pursuit they are to boast about how much they have suffered?

 

[Millard]

But if these descriptions are sensationalised, embellished, exaggerated and all the other things that readers of my paper have complained about, why is this happening? To add excitement? To add danger to what are probably pretty safe lives? (I am presuming most tren users are privileged enough to live in pretty safe countries and to not be wanting for food, shelter etc).

If you ever listen to someone talk about drinking and/or hangovers, you might wonder why anyone would ever drink at all. If you take some of the anecdotes at face value, you'll hear about people making a lot of ill advised choices, getting sick and feeling horrible, maybe getting tossed into a jail cell for a night or more. The experiences get romanticized, and I've found people's tren experiences to be oddly similar.

I'm not sure if that counts as another alcohol metaphor, pretty close.

I think you also hit on something with how humans seem to want to "show how tough they are" - different side to the same coin. That one I can understand much less, personally. But I see it... Ever heard someone kind of brag about how little sleep they get/got? I think of that sometimes when I see some guys talk about how terrible they are doing on a tren cycle.

I think it's all of these things to different degrees for different people. Being tough. Taking risks. Pushing the envelope. You also see it with users perpetuating the roid rage mythology either via expectancy or exaggerating the psychological effects. There may be lack of self-awareness of this as well.

I would really like to see this discussed more.

 

[lifter6973]

I think it's all of these things to different degrees for different people. Being tough. Taking risks. Pushing the envelope. You also see it with users perpetuating the roid rage mythology either via expectancy or exaggerating the psychological effects. There may be lack of self-awareness of this as well.

I would really like to see this discussed more.

I have never experienced roid rage myself and I have used pretty much all of them.
I will say on tren when I start feeling like shit my fuse is shorter but I've never raged out or done anything violent. Essentially as far as it goes it I will tend to yell at someone faster than usual when they act like a jackass and my driving tends be less tolerant of shit drivers (more fingers and yelling, hey jacksass, do you drive often?).
Worst thing I did on tren was on Christmas eve around 10 pm driving to Walgreens. A guy cut me off and I honked at him. We both ended up in the Walgreen's parking lot and on the way in he asked what my problem was.
I told him he didn't know how to drive. He asked if I would teach him. I told my lesson would be knocking his teeth in and I asked him to go ahead and come over. We both went in the store and he kept looking to see if I would do something.
As soon as I left, I immediately felt awful and blamed my behavior on the tren.

 

[FR0Z3N_B0MB3RRR]

I have never experienced roid rage myself and I have used pretty much all of them.
I will say on tren when I start feeling like shit my fuse is shorter but I've never raged out or done anything violent. Essentially as far as it goes it I will tend to yell at someone faster than usual when they act like a jackass and my driving tends be less tolerant of shit drivers (more fingers and yelling, hey jacksass, do you drive often?).
Worst thing I did on tren was on Christmas eve around 10 pm driving to Walgreens. A guy cut me off and I honked at him. We both ended up in the Walgreen's parking lot and on the way in he asked what my problem was.
I told him he didn't know how to drive. He asked if I would teach him. I told my lesson would be knocking his teeth in and I asked him to go ahead and come over. We both went in the store and he kept looking to see if I would do something.
As soon as I left, I immediately felt awful and blamed my behavior on the tren.

Ahaha i pictured the whole scene

@Millard i experinced very crazy roid rage the first time i pinned test years ago… at low dosage too…

then during the time it diminished, but even when off (but still trt) i m pretty aggressive, and in the past, when i was natural i had low test and wasnt aggressive but was a passive son of a bitch…

tren raises a lot libido way more than others, as far as roid rage tren concurs but now i have more self control, but i m very prone to fight till death with anyone.. dont give a fuck about life anymore… but, roids give me mental strenght, energy, boost, aggressiveness, and so on

 

[MairUnderwood(Researcher)]

I think it's all of these things to different degrees for different people. Being tough. Taking risks. Pushing the envelope. You also see it with users perpetuating the roid rage mythology either via expectancy or exaggerating the psychological effects. There may be lack of self-awareness of this as well.

I would really like to see this discussed more.

I tried to work this discussion into my trenbolone chapter but it was already too long and it didn't really fit - plus I only had one or two musings about this and I think I would need to explore it further and get a better handle on it before I tried to publish about it. But how I would go about exploring this topic I am not sure. People seem to get very triggered by other people's stories. My impression is that with trenbolone there are some people who do experience very significant sides, but for many others tren produces few if any sides. I think the latter people see the former as exaggerating and embellishing because they don't share these experiences. I am certain that the stories I got from the guys I have had long-term interactions with are true - the guy who destroyed his marriage for example. I know these guys well and they get no fame or notoriety from lying to me as I don't use their real names. Some of them advise hundreds of users and thus are privy to the experiences of many tren users and therefore see the whole range of experiences. What benefit do they have in lying to me? They give me hours and hours of their time over many years because they believe in what I do, and are as concerned about the reputation of bodybuilders as I am. One of them told me he believes the increased anxiety from tren can be permanent for some people. I think that's scary. Maybe some of the forum comments are a bit exaggerated for dramatic effect though

 

[Jire]

I have always wondered if Tren is organ-toxic by nature, or if it's all the solvents and adjuvents used to brew it by UGL that trigger the orange urine reports and other adverse effects, or even the type of ester used.

Let's say if I were to take Tren base powder orally (just like I take test base powder orally which works beautiful), would that trigger all the same health effects?
It's 99% pure tren base (no ester) powder.

Wait what?? Test base powder orally? Can you explain further about the dose you're using?

 

[Millard]

I am certain that the stories I got from the guys I have had long-term interactions with are true - the guy who destroyed his marriage for example. I know these guys well and they get no fame or notoriety from lying to me as I don't use their real names. Some of them advise hundreds of users and thus are privy to the experiences of many tren users and therefore see the whole range of experiences. What benefit do they have in lying to me? They give me hours and hours of their time over many years because they believe in what I do, and are as concerned about the reputation of bodybuilders as I am.

What exactly are your certain of? That the guy royally fucked up and destroyed his marriage? That the guy is absolutely convinced that trenbolone is responsible?

Sure. But are you absolutely certain of the causal relationship trenbolone supposedly played? That is another question entirely.

I find these type of extreme reports the least credible when it comes to causality. It is precisely because these individuals have the most incentive of anyone to scapegoat steroids.

In the days of social media, it may seem like seeking fame and notoriety are some of the strongest incentives motivating behavior. However, there are more powerful reasons leading people to believe the things they do.

When someone engages in some truly awful and ""unforgiveable" behaviors, it's much easier to cope psychologically if you can externalize blame for your actions i.e. I'm not a bad person it was the tren that made me do it. While it won't completely absolve them from responsibility, it goes a long way towards helping preserve and maintain their self-image going forward.

Steroids are the perfect scapegoat in a society that widely demonizes. When someone scapegoats steroids, there is very little scrutiny or pushback against the claims precisely because society is so conditioned to accept steroids as evil.

Steroids-made-me-do-it may be the best path to redemption for guys involved with serious domestic and violent problems. I wouldn't take their claims at face value. The claims are more worthy of skepticism than certainty.

 

[Deleted member 59947]

Wait what?? Test base powder orally? Can you explain further about the dose you're using?

200mg/day.
Why would DHEA and Pregnenolone work well orally but not testosterone?