Let's talk about GH (and all other shit)

[Eman]

Idk, I read this post that says:

The ONLY mates I know of whom believe insulin is "necessary" are those using very high doses of GH but again the literature does not support this practice either.

Insulin Does Not Increase Muscle Protein Synthesis Rate

He's referring to slin being used from a blood sugar standpoint rather than muscle building.

 

[DickySmalls]

He's referring to slin being used from a blood sugar standpoint rather than muscle building.

Thanks

 

[Mr MASSE]

Do you want to say that GH with insulin, that there are no benefits if both hormones work hand in hand?
I never said that insulin, if you take only insulin, that you will gain muscle mass...But you have to understand that it's not only one compound!
It's all about synergy work between Testo, GH, Insulin, T4 and more AAS...
There are many studys out where you can read that...

 

[DickySmalls]

Do you want to say that GH with insulin, that there are no benefits if both hormones work hand in hand?
I never said that insulin, if you take only insulin, that you will gain muscle mass...But you have to understand that it's not only one compound!
It's all about synergy work between Testo, GH, Insulin, T4 and more AAS...
There are many studys out where you can read that...

No, I was hoping someone would chime in and interpret that for me since I've always heard "HGH + insulin" = tons of mass but when I saw the post I linked above it didn't make sense to me.

 

[PrideofNYC123]

No, I was hoping someone would chime in and interpret that for me since I've always heard "HGH + insulin" = tons of mass but when I saw the post I linked above it didn't make sense to me.

Mike Arnold is pretty intelligent on this subject if you're a member of a board he is on.

 

[mands]

Mike Arnold is pretty intelligent on this subject if you're a member of a board he is on.

Gavin Kane as well. Here is a protocol he swears by and gives a little of history of what he has ran.

Insulin use guide by Gavin Kane

The Almost Pro Guide to Insulin Use

"Please note (warning): I have personally used insulin for over 8 years and can control it's effects for my personal level of development. I am not a medical doctor and therefore not fully qualified to recommend insulin use for people. What follows is my experience in 8 years of use and what I have learned. If anyone has additional information that is pertinent, please add to the thread, but do not reply from heresay, only if you are qualified to add something of value to this thread.

Insulin is one of many hormones that helps the body turn the food we eat into energy. Also, insulin helps us store energy that we can use later. After we eat, insulin works by causing sugar (glucose) to go from the blood into our body's cells to make fat, sugar, and protein. When we need more energy between meals, insulin will help us use the fat, sugar, and protein that we have stored. This occurs whether we make our own insulin in the pancreas gland or take it by injection.

8 Years ago when I first made the decision to try insulin, information was limited, the internet was not full of help like it is now and I relied on correspondance from Rich Gaspari and Tim Belknap who were extremely helpful. I started my first insulin use off season, during bulking when it's use is easiest to control. I used Humulin R, regular resonse time insulin for my first cycle. It has a release time of up to 8 hours, so blood sugar monitoring is mandatory. It has an onset of about 1/2 hour, reaching its peak in 2-5 hours and tapering off by hour 8. I used 2iu post workout with 20 grams of sugar per iu, immediately following a workout, increasing 2 iu per week until I reached a maximum of 12iu. Since it will remain active in the body for up to 8 hours, morning workouts were a must. Because I was off season, I was able to take in enough carbs every three hours to keep from going hypo.

My second cycle of insulin was Humulin type L, which is a very long acting insuling; since I was bulking, I decided to try a long acting insulin to stay anabolic all day. It will remain active in the body for 16-20 hours, is active 1/2 hour after injection, reaching its peak in 3-5 hours, will re-peak at 10-12 hours and slowly taper down. You must use a glucometer for any insulin use, but especially with long term insulin. I had to consume minimum 100 grams of carbs every 3 hours during the day, I got nothing but fat off of insulin type L and do not ever recommend anyone use it. It is too hard to control.

I did many cycles of Humulin R for years, progressing from 2iu up to 20iu post workout. After many post workout only cycles of insulin, I started to experiment with insulin use on non-workout days. I again started slowly and increased dosages with monitoring by glucometer. I used only with breakfast at first and then added in an afternoon injection as well. I never went above 10iu at each meal, always checking my blood sugar every 1/2 hour. Yes your fingers will hurt like hell, but I would rather have sore fingers than live in a casket.

Finally Humalog was introduced and I first tried it in 1999. This is what bodybuilders had been waiting for, a fast acting insulin that had a quick onset, short duration and was better controlled through sugar intake. My first cycle of Humalog started with the again customary 2iu postworkout, slowly increasing to 10iu post workout. Humalog has an onset of 15-20 minutes, reaches a peak in 1 hour and will remain active up to 5 hours.

I only recommend Humalog use for anyone considering insulin. It is the easiest to control and work with. Here are my recommendations and guidelines for use:

Start with 2iu postworkout only, drinking 10 grams glucose or dextrose per unit injected. You may slowly increase the dose up to 10iu total but never exceed 10iu, even if you are experienced. You must, I repeat, must use a glucometer, don't even think of using insulin without it. Going by feel for symptoms of hypo is stupid and reckless. You want to make sure your blood sugar levels stay above 80mg/dl ideally, but never let them drop below 40.

Since humalog is active for up to 5 hours, you must make sure not to take it after evening workouts, unless you will be awake for those 5 hours. Insulin levels can crash rapidly and there are no warning signs when you are sleeping. Low levels will make you sleepy, so you just won't wake up - ever!

Your postworkout meal should consist of minimum 10 grams sugar per iu injected plus minimum 50 grams whey protein. Your follow up meal, 1 hour after injection, when it reaches its peak, should consist of easily digested proteins and carbs. No red meat; fish, chicken or turkey are more easily digested. Carbs should be high glycemic, such as potatoes, white rice or pasta.

Your final meal during the 5 hour window can be anything you desire as long as it has a minimum of 75 grams carbs. Oatmeal, red meat etc are all acceptable, and your carbs should ideally be low glycemic to sustain your stabilizing insulin levels.

Insulin should be refridgerated at all times; though it is safe to leave at room temperature for up to 30 days, I don't recommend it.

Your injections should always be sub-q, IM injections do not allow for the regular onset times and delay onset which makes controlling carbs and monitoring sugar levels harder to do.

Ideally injections should be in the lower abdominal area, sub-q. Pinch 1 inch of skin, roll in between your fingers to remove fatty deposits and inject at a 90 degree angle crossing through the skin. This will insure an optimal sub-q injection and less chance of IM or fat injections. Both will slow absorbtion time which we are trying to eliminate.

Take a glucometer reading 1/2 hour after injection to check levels. If they are below 80mg/dl than take in more carbs immediately, take another glucometer reading after the one hour mark to check full onset and reaction. Again, if below 80mg than take in a fast acting carb with your one hour meal.

Signs of hypo include, dizziness, slow slurred speech, light-headedness, sleepiness, lethargy, numbness in the outer limbs, and blurred vision. Never take insulin unsupervised, alway let someone you know that you are injecting so they can help monitor warning signs and symptoms. Remember, the glucometer is your best friend, but someone else may notice symptoms before you do and can assist in raising blood sugar levels immediately.

You may progress to taking Humalog on non-workout days, but only after breakfast, and no more than 10iu. You must work up to the dosage and again follow the above guidelines. Your meals should consist of a mix of fast and slow acting carbs, and always include protein. Milk has fast acting carbs, oatmeal is low glycemic, etc. always use the glycemic index for carbs.

These are the general rules of taking insulin safely and sanely. Again, I do not recommend the casual lifter take insulin ever, it is better left to those who compete and have reached a superior level of development. It is best used to break plateaus, such as with GH or IGF. It is not for newbies, nor for those without minimum 5 years lifting experience with steroid use.

If there is anything I forgot, please PM me or add advice to this thread, but again only by those qualified to do so. You should have at least 5 cycles insulin use to be qualified to help others. This is very serious business and I cannot stress enough, not for the casual lifter.

AP
Since this article was originally written, new ideas have come to light and been tested, not only by me, but also by my band of guinee pigs with awesome success.

We decided to remove the daily injection pattern and move into a more infrequent schedule to prevent insulin resistence and shutting down the bodies natural ability to continue to regenerate insulin from the pancreas.

So after talking with Milos, Chad and others I tried and found a two day schedule, max three day schedule to be optimal to induce massive hypertrophy and minimize insulin resistance. It should be coordinated and timed with the largest muscle groups trained, such as taken 2 times per week pwo after legs and then also with back.

Maximize your nutrition intake, I cannot stress enough that up to 30-40% of your daily intake of food should be during this window of opportunity. Immediately take in some glucose and whey pwo, followed up by a super clean meal of high carb, moderate protein. Have pancakes and eggs, chicken and rice, lean beef and potatoes, etc.

So the protocol is now this:
Take 10-15ius pwo only 2-3 days per week but never in successive days. There must be at least one day in between injections. Lower is better here, so start with 2 times per week, 10iu.

If you are not making the gains, then stay at 2x per week but now do morning and pwo. Same thing, 10iu injects with clean carbs, no fat. Please use Humalog. I know a lot of guys are using Humulin R and I can help you with that if that is all you can get, but log is so much easier to use.

Anyway, you can go up to 3x per day, breakfast, lunch, and dinner 2x per week and really maximize your gains from slin. It really is all in the nutrition with slin, so if you don't want to eat and commit, then don't f'in do it."

mands

 

[Nutpuncher]

What type of flower is that?

Cherry Pie and 2 strains of OG....Supposed to be True OG, but each starter plants grew differently. I used plant PEDs (3 stages) during flowering and I can tell difference between this and last harvest. Smells fruity'er and flowers are more solid rather than fluffy.

 

[DickySmalls]

@mands

For the new protocol, it states:

"Take 10-15ius pwo"

Does the "10 grams sugar per iu injected" apply to that as well? It seems like quite a lot of sugar (100-150 grams). That's 4-6 Snickers bars worth of sugar: Snickers®

"If you are not making the gains, then stay at 2x per week but now do morning and pwo"

What is the optimal thing for people who wake up/eat, then go to the gym right after eating (4-5 AM)? Since it says "Anyway, you can go up to 3x per day, breakfast, lunch, and dinner" I would assume post-workout (basically breakfast) and then @ lunch.

 

[mands]

@mands

For the new protocol, it states:

"Take 10-15ius pwo"

Does the "10 grams sugar per iu injected" apply to that as well? It seems like quite a lot of sugar (100-150 grams). That's 4-6 Snickers bars worth of sugar: Snickers®

"If you are not making the gains, then stay at 2x per week but now do morning and pwo"

What is the optimal thing for people who wake up/eat, then go to the gym right after eating (4-5 AM)? Since it says "Anyway, you can go up to 3x per day, breakfast, lunch, and dinner" I would assume post-workout (basically breakfast) and then @ lunch.

Yes 10 grams of sugar is applied to this protocol as well.

I would suggest eating what he states after your insulin shots.

mands

 

[DickySmalls]

Yes 10 grams of sugar is applied to this protocol as well.

I would suggest eating what he states after your insulin shots.

mands

Oh sorry, my 2nd question was about when to take the insulin if you're taking it 2x a day (for when "you are not making the gains") and do early morning workouts. 7 AM (post workout) and 12 PM (lunch) would be OK, right? How do you get 100-150 g of sugar from normal food? Do you just have to add a bunch of actual sugar to the meal?

 

[mands]

Yes to your question.

You can take a supplement with high sugar supplement.

mands

 

[PrideofNYC123]

@mands

For the new protocol, it states:

"Take 10-15ius pwo"

Does the "10 grams sugar per iu injected" apply to that as well? It seems like quite a lot of sugar (100-150 grams). That's 4-6 Snickers bars worth of sugar: Snickers®

"If you are not making the gains, then stay at 2x per week but now do morning and pwo"

What is the optimal thing for people who wake up/eat, then go to the gym right after eating (4-5 AM)? Since it says "Anyway, you can go up to 3x per day, breakfast, lunch, and dinner" I would assume post-workout (basically breakfast) and then @ lunch.

It doesn't have to be sugar, I would suggest a carb powder like Karbolyn, HBCD, or Carb10, but dextrose/pixie sticks are yummy.

I do preWO and 1hr PostWO, but just make sure you eat enough whenever you do it.
I do preWO, then drink a mix of EAA and Carb10 during workout, then 60 minutes later, inject again and have a large meal with carbs - sweet potato, pasta, etc(not a big rice fan).

 

[Mr MASSE]

It's like so, the protocol is for safety!
When you learn how your body responds to insulin, with more time it is not necessary to consume so much dextrose, sugar..I take insulin with whey and some dextrose.. After a few weeks of using when have time to eat good, I do not longer need extra dextrose, just a really good meal!
If you remember the bostin loyd video, after workout he shoots GH, PEPS, AND INSULIN and he only goes for eating! The first insulin shoot in my life, it was a little, but it imidiatly give me a under sugar! It was so intense doing it thing! With time it's like your body is going down with sensibility, I mean I do not get so fast hypo!
But the first time using, always do it like in the protocol! Safety first!
Another thing, so many people have to use it and so much more people use it because they want without dying!
So, I hope you understand that with time you do not need so much dextrose! Just a very good meal and a coke or 1 liter of orange juice or something like that.

 

[Sampei]

2much of a headache! Lol

 

[mands]

It doesn't have to be sugar, I would suggest a carb powder like Karbolyn, HBCD, or Carb10, but dextrose/pixie sticks are yummy.

I do preWO and 1hr PostWO, but just make sure you eat enough whenever you do it.
I do preWO, then drink a mix of EAA and Carb10 during workout, then 60 minutes later, inject again and have a large meal with carbs - sweet potato, pasta, etc(not a big rice fan).

I assumed he knew that. I believe glycojet was another one a buddy used and like it.

mands

 

[DickySmalls]

I assumed he knew that. I believe glycojet was another one a buddy used and like it.

mands

Ahh, no, my knowledge on insulin is next to non-existent. Since sugar is just a high GI carb, any other high GI carb would be OK? Example:

150 g sugar = 150 g carbs. So 1 cup raw white rice = 120 g carbs (1/4 = 30 since 30 x 4 = 120). 1 1/4 cups = 150 g carbs and would be adequate? Since white rice is high GI and high GL:

"To understand a food's complete effect on blood sugar, you need to know both how quickly the food makes glucose enter the bloodstream, and how much glucose it will deliver. A separate value called glycemic load does that."

Glycemic index and glycemic load for 100+ foods - Harvard Health

Am I understanding that correctly?

Edit: It says kraft mac and cheese is even higher GL, would a whole box of that be good (3 servings in a box, so the below times 3):

 

[PrideofNYC123]

I would stick to sugar/carb drink to start with. You can experiment after you know how your body reacts.

Once you've got that down then you can experiment with other carbs and amounts. I only need about 6g/iu but 10g is a safe bet to begin with.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[DickySmalls]

Ahh I see, I am doing more research. Now I understand why the high amount of sugar is a good starting point since sugar = highest GI/GL:

Glycemic Index – NutritionData.com

 

[Wunderpus]

Based on the BS coming out with supplement companies NOT following through with what the label says, better off using a product such as Gatorade for your carbs...IMO. I took Prime IntraMD (which was just revealed to NOT contain of a lot of what it says it does) for my insulin and just about died in the gym from going hypo. I have more faith in companies like Gatorade to follow through with what the label says.... Good luck, guys. And, not to be a prick, but most of you guys shouldn't be fucking with insulin....

The article Mands posted is a nice intro, but it's not the end all be all... Insulin can be used safely pre workout, and you CAN use humulin safely as well. I'd prefer humulin for the morning, and log for afternoons. Again, be safe, guys.

 

[Mr MASSE]

The problem with slow carbs is, that they are slow absorbing but Insulin is working in about 5 min to 10 minutes (the very first time it was like BOOM, 30 sec after the first 5 IU insulin shoot I go hypo, I was sweating I was thinking my body is going shaking! Unbelievable! But only a few first shoots it was so fast and intense!) and then your blood sugar is going fast deep and then it can happen that there is no more energy in your blood for your brain! So you go hypo...
The thing is that you only want to consume so much dextrose that you don't go hypo..
so for the beginning you always consume dextrose with whey.. 10 IU insulin with 100 grams dextrose and 60 g whey and about 1 hour to 1. 5 hour you eat a really good meal!
So all of good nutritions are "pumped" without going over your liver in your muscles cells!
If you are advanced you can use it pre workout and you must always have enough blood sugar to train! Dangerous for beginners..
If you are more advanced you use both long acting and fast acting insulin! But it's really stressful to eat all day! And it's also dangerous if you forget to have ALWAYS enough dextrose in your back hand!!!